Derrick Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 ..no thx, it's you who deserves the credits This is the best tuning tool for SS2 I've tried so far.. It's equally the state of the art for users who to update their Astra or Hotbird settings as well as for dxer's who want a fast scan of narrow scpc carriers Cheers Derrick Quote Link to comment
boborg Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Thanks from here as well. Always nice with new things to play with. Quote Link to comment
crypto Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 Hi Griga, thank you very much for this great tool. Channel scanning is a complex task and I haven't found anything that comes as close to what I need as your scanner. DVBViewer definitely needs an update, dvbportal has no own scanner, because I know how much work needs to be done , and setup4pc is ok, but very slow and has a duplicate transponder problem. Even though the scanner is close to perfect, please let me make some comments on it. You mention, that the transponder descriptions are a non-standard feature. Why don't you use the provider as a description? Why rely on third party transponder lists? The dvb standard has defined NIT parsing for that. For non-listed transponders and feed hunting a step-scanner as in setup4pc would do as an advanced feature. I also don't like the duplicate entries for each audio pid. A single entry would do. The audio tracks need to be parsed each time a channel is tuned in, because many channels have changed audio tracks from transmission to transmission. Keep up the good work. Quote Link to comment
Griga Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 Why don't you use the provider as a description? I could do that... however, sometimes there is more than one provider on a transponder, and I don't want my personal description to be overwritten. Maybe something like IF description is empty AND provider present THEN description := comma delimited list of providers I will think about it... Why rely on third party transponder lists? The dvb standard has defined NIT parsing for that. NIT... yes I saw these three letters here and there in the specs. But I don't know yet how it works and how reliable it is. Looks like I have to read a bit more... For non-listed transponders and feed hunting a step-scanner as in setup4pc would do as an advanced feature. I already thought about it and discussed it with Derrick - some kind of "Update Transponderlist" or "Create Transponderlist" function.. However, there are some tricky problems, especially concerning the symbolrate. The new SS2 hardware rev. doesn't support SR auto-detection anymore. On Astra it's sufficient to try 22000 and 27500, but on other satellites some more symbolrates may be used. With, let's say, six different SRs you get the following calculation: 6 SRs x 2 (H/V) x 2 seconds tunerlock-timeout = 24 seconds per trial Quite a lengthy thing - and how can the accurate frequency of a transponder be determined? By checking the frequency range with 1 MHz steps and then take the medium frequency - even more time-consuming. Any idea how this can be shortened? I also don't like the duplicate entries for each audio pid. A single entry would do. The audio tracks need to be parsed each time a channel is tuned in, because many channels have changed audio tracks from transmission to transmission. Well, I tried to keep it DVBViewer-compliant personally I prefer a separate entry for each audio PID, because my ol' TechniSat receiver does it just the other way round, thus making it difficult to handle multi-radio services (several radio channels sharing one SID) and to program timer-recordings for a certain audio channel. I think both ways of "mapping" channels have their (dis-)advantages. Griga Quote Link to comment
crypto Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 Hi Griga, > IF description is empty AND provider present THEN description := comma > delimited list of providers > I will think about it... Yes, something like that would be fine. > Quite a lengthy thing - and how can the correct frequency be determinded? By > checking the ... I see your point. I did not know, that the new tuners do not have a auto SR anymore. How could they cut such a useful feature? > NIT... yes I saw these three letters here and there in the specs This is how STBs do the scan. I have recorded the NIT from one transponder (ARD). It contains all transponders and all data needed (even SRs). The spec even allows links to other satellites. Quote Link to comment
Griga Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 I have recorded the NIT from one transponder (ARD). It contains all transponders and all data needed (even SRs). Hmm, seems to be something I should consider... thanks! Just read the NIT and create a transponderlist out of it... looks so simple.... I suspect there is a pitfall somewhere. Do all transponders send this NIT? Can it be found on every satellite position? Griga Quote Link to comment
Derrick Posted December 10, 2003 Author Share Posted December 10, 2003 Do all transponders send this NIT? Can it be found on every satellite position? Griga no, NIT search is only possible on satellites like astra and hotbird. All search methods that are only based on NIT search fail on most satellites.. The NIT can be missing or contains wrong entries in many cases. Quote Link to comment
crypto Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 > Hmm, seems to be something I should consider... thanks! Just read the NIT and > create a transponderlist out of it... looks so simple.... I suspect there is a pitfall > somewhere. Do all transponders send this NIT? Can it be found on every > satellite position? I agree. It seem to be to simple. All transponders carry the NIT, but there are as always exceptions of this scheme. The software in the STBs have defined so called home channels. These are one or two channels per satellite where to begin the NIT parsing. The transponder list are organized in a hierachical way. Some transponders contain only other transponder of the same network. There are linkage descriptors where to find a transponder from the next network and so on. To get a complete NIT it may be necessary to tune into some more transponders. On Astra it is simple. The table I recorded carries 63 transponders, astra.ini has 59 transponders. It seem to be complete. Here is how the table is parsed, if you like to do your own experiments 0x43 is the interesting tag: NIT ACTUAL SECTION: 0 table_id: 0x40 section_syntax_indicator: 0x01 section_length: 0x3fc(1020) network_id: 0x0001 version_number: 0x16 current_next_indicator: 0x1 section_number: 0x00(0) last_section_number: 0x01(1) network_descriptors_length: 0x4c network_descriptors descriptor_tag: 0x4a => linkage_descriptor descriptor_tag: 0x4a => linkage_descriptor descriptor_tag: 0x4a => linkage_descriptor descriptor_tag: 0x40 => network_name_descriptor descriptor_tag: 0x4a => linkage_descriptor descriptor_tag: 0x4a => linkage_descriptor descriptor_tag: 0x4a => linkage_descriptor descriptor_tag: 0x4a => linkage_descriptor transport_stream_loop_length: 0x3a3 transport_streams transport_stream_id: 0x0001 orignal_network_id: 0x0085 transport_descriptors_length: 0x0d transport_descriptors descriptor_tag: 0x43 => satellite_delivery_system_descriptor descriptor_length(byte): 11 descriptor_data(hex): 01 20 70 50 01 92 81 02 75 00 03 frequency: 12.07050 ghz orbital_position: 19.2 degree west_east_flag: 0x1 => eastern position polarization: 0x0 => linear-horizontal modulation: 0x01 => QPSK symbol_rate: 27.5000 msymbol/s fec_inner: 0x3 => 3/4 conv. code rate transport_stream_id: 0x0002 orignal_network_id: 0x0085 transport_descriptors_length: 0x0d transport_descriptors descriptor_tag: 0x43 => satellite_delivery_system_descriptor descriptor_length(byte): 11 descriptor_data(hex): 01 17 97 50 01 92 81 02 75 00 03 frequency: 11.79750 ghz orbital_position: 19.2 degree west_east_flag: 0x1 => eastern position polarization: 0x0 => linear-horizontal modulation: 0x01 => QPSK symbol_rate: 27.5000 msymbol/s fec_inner: 0x3 => 3/4 conv. code rate transport_stream_id: 0x0003 transport_stream_id: 0x0004 ... 61 more stream ids follow ... 13 of them are in the next section ... cu, crypto Quote Link to comment
crypto Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 @Derrick > no, NIT search is only possible on satellites like astra and hotbird. All search > methods that are only based on NIT search fail on most satellites.. I disagree. If it were so, a most commercial STBs couln't do a scan on the satellite. Do you have examples of such satellites? > The NIT can be missing or contains wrong entries in many cases. Hm, the network provider chooses the contents of the NIT table. There may be transponders missing, if the provider wants to hide some channel from public access. This is done sometimes. Sometimes the are also entries of channels, that are not always on air. Anyway this is the DVB standard and I would never say "wrong entries in many cases". Do you imply that NIT parsing is not useable for channel scans? Quote Link to comment
Derrick Posted December 10, 2003 Author Share Posted December 10, 2003 >All transponders carry the NIT, but there are as always exceptions of this scheme... there are more exeptions than you think.. NIT search is nice as an option and was already more than once mentioned by me ..here an example of what I'm talking about: Transponder 16E 11190H { Program Association Table [PAT] at PID 0x0000 programs { program_number 0x0000 -> PID = 0x0010 (is network_PID) program_number 0x0001 -> PID = 0x1079 (is program_map_PID) (Scopus Network Technologies - CBS-NY MAIN) } Network Information Table [NIT] at PID 0x0010 { no NIT found } Service Description Table [sDT] at PID 0x0011 { transport_stream_id = 0x00B0 (00/00) { CRC32 = 0x14D0047E (OK) table_id = 0x42 (service_description_section - actual_network) section_syntax_indicator = 1 (OK) section_length = 0x003C version_number = 0x07 current_next_indicator = 1 (is applicable) section_number = 0x00 last_section_number = 0x00 original_network_id = 0x00B1 (TPS - La Télévision Par Satellite) service_id = 0x0001 { EIT_schedule_flag = 1 (present) EIT_present_following_flag = 0 (not present) running_status = 4 (running) free_CA_mode = 0 (all components not scrambled) Descriptor entries { descriptors_loop_length = 0x002B descriptor = 0x48 (service_descriptor) { descriptor_length = 0x29 service_type = 0x01 (digital television service) service_provider_name_length: 0x1B character_code_table (provider_name) = 00 - Latin alphabet (ISO/IEC 6937) service_provider_name = Scopus Network Technologies service_name_length = 0x0B character_code_table (service_name) = 00 - Latin alphabet (ISO/IEC 6937) service_name = CBS-NY MAIN no NIT on one of my favorite transponders and the ONIT can be very misleading as well, or why do you think do programs like progdvb like to overwright your precious settings? Quote Link to comment
crypto Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 Hi Derrick, I see where you are going . This is one of the babies, they don't want you to watch. I think they even switch pids randomly. Quote Link to comment
Griga Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 OK, ok... if I find some time for it I'll study the NIT and try to parse it. Then we'll see... anyway, a very helpful discussion. Thanks @Crypto & Derrick! Griga Quote Link to comment
Griga Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 descriptor = 0x48 (service_descriptor){ descriptor_length = 0x29 service_type = 0x01 (digital television service) service_provider_name_length: 0x1B character_code_table (provider_name) = 00 - Latin alphabet (ISO/IEC 6937) service_provider_name = Scopus Network Technologies P.S. @Derrick: How did the character_code_table get there? The ETSI specs do not mention it... any clue? Griga Quote Link to comment
Gioxy Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 @ Griga ...try to take a look to the "Refresh" function in SkyView's "Transponder info" -> "Cache" window (you have to order the providers "by Transponders" before): it refresh in some way the transponder list, I'm not sure if is by NIT, but it may give you some indication for your great TransEdit... Cheers Gioxy Quote Link to comment
Derrick Posted December 10, 2003 Author Share Posted December 10, 2003 descriptor = 0x48 (service_descriptor){ descriptor_length = 0x29 service_type = 0x01 (digital television service) service_provider_name_length: 0x1B character_code_table (provider_name) = 00 - Latin alphabet (ISO/IEC 6937) service_provider_name = Scopus Network Technologies P.S. @Derrick: How did the character_code_table get there? The ETSI specs do not mention it... any clue? Griga isn't it in the ETS 300 468? A.2 Selection of character table Text fields can optionally start with non-spacing, non-displayed data which specifies the alternative character table to be used for the remainder of the text item. The selection of character table is indicated as follows: - if the first byte of the text field has a value in the range "0x20" to "0xFF" then this and all subsequent bytes in the text item are coded using the default character coding table (table 00 - Latin alphabet) of figure A.1; - if the first byte of the text field has a value in the range "0x01" to "0x05" then the remaining bytes in the text item are coded in accordance with character coding tables 01 to 05 respectively, which are given in figures A.2 to A.6 respectively; - if the first byte of the text field has a value "0x10" then the following two bytes carry a 16-bit value (uimsbf) N to indicate that the remaining data of the text field is coded using the character code table specified by ISO Standard 8859-1 to 9 [5]. Values for the first byte of "0x00", "0x06" to "0x0F", and "0x11" to "0x1F" are reserved for future use. Quote Link to comment
crypto Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 Hi Griga, Hi Derrick, the character_code_table entry seems to be an artefact. Here is what I get: SDT ACTUAL SECTION: 0 table_id: 0x42 section_syntax_indicator: 0x01 section_length: 0x3c(60) transport_stream_id: 0x00b0 version_number: 0x07 current_next_indicator: 0x1 section_number: 0x00(0) last_section_number: 0x00(0) original_network_id: 0x00b1 services service_id: 0x0001 (1) eit_schedule_flag: 0x1 eit_present_following_flag: 0x0 running_status: 0x4 free_ca_mode: 0x0 descriptors_loop_length: 0x2b descriptors descriptor_tag: 0x48 => service_descriptor descriptor_length(byte): 41 descriptor_data(hex): 01 1b 53 63 6f 70 75 73 20 4e 65 74 77 6f 72 6b 20 54 65 63 68 6e 6f 6c 6f 67 69 65 73 0b 43 42 53 2d 4e 59 20 4d 41 49 4e service_type: 0x01 => digital television service service_provider_name_length: 27 service_provider_name: "Scopus Network Technologies" service_name_length: 11 service_name: "CBS-NY MAIN" crc_32: 0x14d0047e Ah and BTW there is a NIT on that transponder NIT ACTUAL SECTION: 0 table_id: 0x40 section_syntax_indicator: 0x01 section_length: 0x15(21) network_id: 0x00eb version_number: 0x00 current_next_indicator: 0x1 section_number: 0x00(0) last_section_number: 0x00(0) network_descriptors_length: 0x08 network_descriptors descriptor_tag: 0x40 => network_name_descriptor descriptor_length(byte): 6 descriptor_data(hex): 53 63 6f 70 75 73 network_name: "Scopus" transport_stream_loop_length: 0x00 crc_32: 0x88a29865 but the transport stream loop is empty. So a "simple" parser might report "no NIT" : Quote Link to comment
Derrick Posted December 10, 2003 Author Share Posted December 10, 2003 ..maybe I'll stream pid 0x0010 later again without the tool but with the character set it's exactly as written in the ETS 300 468, isn't it? >- if the first byte of the text field has a value in the range "0x20" to "0xFF" then this and all subsequent bytes in the text item are coded using the default character coding table (table 00 - Latin alphabet) >descriptor_data(hex): 01 1b 53... 0x53 -> S (Latin alphabet) btw. you should consider the table repition rates as well. For me it's difficult to measure but some are apperantly not within the limits as described in dvb. Quote Link to comment
crypto Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 Ahh, tricky! It is an implicit entry. You did your home work. Quote Link to comment
Griga Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 but with the character set it's exactly as written in the ETS 300 468, isn't it? Aaah, now I've got it! I've only read the descriptor description, but not Annex A... Sometimes I saw strange characters in the channel- and provider names and wondered why... finally I simply let them pass through a filter procedure to get rid of the unwanted characters and forgot about it.... Griga Quote Link to comment
Derrick Posted December 10, 2003 Author Share Posted December 10, 2003 a NIT_search won't never ever yield channels like these Quote Link to comment
Griga Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 Hey, that's far out... never saw something like this... especially the SID, they are all one, in the true sense of the word. And I'd really like to know in which country they speak aaa and aab... @Derrick: Are you still using an old version? The final release should show a SR column besides the frequency. Griga Quote Link to comment
Derrick Posted December 10, 2003 Author Share Posted December 10, 2003 ..no, it's not that far out. Actually it's closer to astra than hotbird (10E) yep, it's not the latest version.. but I can switch to the one you released @Crypto, you can't blame any parser not to find the NIT (or what's left of it) on the mentioned transponder (16E, 11190H). I've done a complete transponder recording (SkyView) of about 100MB. There were only 12 occurences of pid 0x0010 40 -> table_id: network_information_section - actual_network F015 -> length 21 -> Bytes 00EB -> network_id C1 -> reserved (2 Bits): 3 -> version_number (5 Bits): 00 -> current_next_indicator (1 Bit): 1 00 -> section_number 00 -> last_section_number 0008 -> network_descriptors_length 8 bytes 40 -> network_name_descriptor 06 -> 6 bytes Scopus (Latin alphabet) 0000 -> transport_stream_loop_length 0 bytes ..and here's what TSReader says (only found 11 ) ps. nice time and date Quote Link to comment
crypto Posted January 2, 2004 Share Posted January 2, 2004 Awesome! Thank you very much for the update. I really like your program. Quote Link to comment
Griga Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 Well, as it always goes... after having uploaded version 1.5, I got the a hint from Derrick... had a look at the code and the specs again, and found a bug, that in rare cases prevents TransEdit from detecting a channel. So I just re-uploaded it. I think the scanner engine now is - no, not perfect. That would be boring. Working quite well. That's it. @Crypto: Sorry, I will reply to your mail soon. I was quite busy with other things, especially the DVBSource filter. Griga Quote Link to comment
crypto Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 Hi Griga, no rush! I noticed what is going on here the last days and you all did very well. Quote Link to comment
Derrick Posted January 3, 2004 Author Share Posted January 3, 2004 Hiho I just made test on 42E and now everything seems almost perfect ..more transponders and imho faster as well The one transponder that gave me so much trouble was read in no time Quote Link to comment
crypto Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 Hi Derrick, Good, that you know the specs so well. Quote Link to comment
Derrick Posted January 3, 2004 Author Share Posted January 3, 2004 ..not by heart. It's all in the ISO but you'll have to find it Quote Link to comment
damjang Posted January 20, 2004 Share Posted January 20, 2004 I report here, but I don't know if this is a TransEdit problem or provider problem. When I scan the Trasponder Mediaset on Hotbird (11388 H 27500) sometimes TE found 2 channels, sometime nothing (all red!). Regards damjang Quote Link to comment
KGM11 Posted January 20, 2004 Share Posted January 20, 2004 I have a similar problem, but it's quite random and not limited to a single transponder. The scan process sometimes just doesn't find anything on a 'known good' transponder (PAT, PMT, SDT turn red), but if scanned again it works fine. Not a problem if I want to scan single transponders, but when doing a full satellite scan it's quite annoying because you never know if all transponders have been scanned properly. My other card (Technotrend DVB-s 1.3) doesn't exhibit this problem. I've also switched the cables between the two cards (one has a slightly better signal level because the other one is hacked up out of two connected runs of cable), but the TT card works fine on both cables while the Skystar (2.6B) shows the described behaviour on both. I don't know if it's a hardware or software problem, but maybe it would be possible to add an option to TransEdit that causes it to re-scan transponders on which it didn't find a signal/any services on the first try? Quote Link to comment
Gioxy Posted January 20, 2004 Share Posted January 20, 2004 Sometimes Mediaset's channels are encripted, because they don't have a international permission to transmit some material (like some film and some sport event). Moreover they have a large bandwidth consumption (I don't know why...) and are the slowest channel to visualize on my PC... maybe changing some TransEdit scanning parameter will do the trick... Cheers Gioxy Quote Link to comment
Griga Posted January 20, 2004 Share Posted January 20, 2004 maybe changing some TransEdit scanning parameter will do the trick Probably... if PAT, PMT and SDT turn red, I'd try to increase the tuner lock and PAT timeout, as described in the ReadMe. The default values have been tested with Astra 19° East. However, on other satellite positions the conditions may be different. Some broadcasters have a idiosyncratic way to implement the DVB standard... Griga Quote Link to comment
Derrick Posted January 20, 2004 Author Share Posted January 20, 2004 The problem that you have to rescan some transponders isn't solved yet. IMHO nobody knows whether this is a driver related problem or something else. Sometimes the tuner simply won't lock but on a rescan the tuner in some cases will lock immediately. Alas a good indicator for the qpsk lock is missing.. Quote Link to comment
Guest Oliver Posted January 20, 2004 Share Posted January 20, 2004 I encountered this problem once when scanning for Euro1080. Sometimes 2 channels were found, sometimes only one and once nothing. Bye, Oliver Quote Link to comment
Griga Posted January 20, 2004 Share Posted January 20, 2004 @Everybody who encounters this problem: Which driver version / SkyStar2 hardware rev. do you use? Griga Quote Link to comment
Derrick Posted January 20, 2004 Author Share Posted January 20, 2004 the latest driver (4.28) and rev. 2.6B Quote Link to comment
Job48 Posted January 20, 2004 Share Posted January 20, 2004 Possibly not very helpful my rmark, but it seems to me, we are dealing with a nature constant here. I encountered the same problem with the pinnacle hardware, I used before. Looks like computers have the same problems as humans (myself) not finding thing on the first run. One has to look again... So the update function is of importance, adding new channels on rescan, without deleting the ones already found. One can do fine this way, I think. Quote Link to comment
Derrick Posted January 20, 2004 Author Share Posted January 20, 2004 Apparently there are 2 different not related problems. 1. the scan of a transponder is successful but sometimes not complete 2. scanning a transponders fails but a rescan is succesful Maybe the 1st case can be improved by increasing the time out for the tables slightly (@Griga could comment on this case) The 2nd case could be more complicated. I have a theory but no proof of course IMHO it could be related to the symbol rate. If the symbol rate is almost constant like on astra, no problems will occur. The bandwidth of a a modulated qpsk carrier depends on the symbol rate. For low SRs filters have to be changed in the frontend (and for high BWs as well). The FE only gets parameters for frequency, pol, and SR. The filters have to be automatically changed by the FE. If a I2C command was known to enforce this, the qpsk lock could be achieved faster and more reliable in case of different SRs. The list is sorted according to frequency but not to SR so on other satellites the SR jumps all the time. Quote Link to comment
crypto Posted January 20, 2004 Share Posted January 20, 2004 As Derrick has pointed out, there is a large mix of SRs on hotbird and others. As far as I know, TransEdit relies on Auto FEC. I think by supplying the FEC found in the NIT, the tuner can lock faster and more reliable. Quote Link to comment
Griga Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 I would like to get some feedback from TransEdit users.... Usually a complete TransEdit scan of Astra 19° East takes about 4 minutes on my PC, with hardware rev. 2.3 and the 4.22 drivers. Yesterday I installed the latest TechniSat drivers 4.28. Now it takes 6 minutes anybody else experienced that? How long does it take on your PC? Griga Quote Link to comment
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