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Kuni

madVR implementation - Posssible?

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Kuni

As I'm having an infinite amount of trouble getting VMR 7/9/ EVR working without being an unwatchable mess..

 

Is there any way to impliment Madvr into DVBViewer as a new renderer?

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Lars_MQ

No.

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LoRd_MuldeR

Well, are there any chances that support for MadVR or any other "third party" renderers (e.g. Haali Renderer) will be added to DVBViewer in a future release?

 

It would be a great addition to be able to use DVBViewer with MadVR without having to go the streaming route...

Edited by LoRd_MuldeR

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Lars_MQ

No.

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LoRd_MuldeR

Too bad. Any specific reason for that?

Edited by LoRd_MuldeR

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hackbart

There is absolutely no need for yet another special renderer. The next as well as the current beta versions of the DVBViewer come with a very high optimized D3D renderer which can also use DXVA2 and shaders. We (especially Lars) spent a lot time to get it working with almost every OS and under even the worst conditions. So there are no plans to add a possible trouble maker.

 

Christian

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LoRd_MuldeR

There is absolutely no need for yet another special renderer. The next as well as the current beta versions of the DVBViewer come with a very high optimized D3D renderer which can also use DXVA2 and shaders.

 

Still it doesn't offer the great quality that MadVR does offer. Sure, most users aren't video enthusiasts and probably won't see the difference. Average Joe jsut wants something that works "out of the box". But still, it would be great (for advanced users) to optionally be able to use the renderer of their choice.

 

Also: Does your renderer support high quality dithering and 3dlut support? Does your renderer support high quality scaling methods, such as Lanczos4 and Spline36? Furthermore I never managed to get the "built-in" DVBViewer renderers to play smoothly on my second screen, while MadVR manged to fix (or at least minimize) the issue.

 

 

We (especially Lars) spent a lot time to get it working with almost every OS and under even the worst conditions. So there are no plans to add a possible trouble maker.

 

No doubt about that. But IMO that's not a good reason to force anybody to use only the "built-in" renderers. Better way: Leave the choice to the user! Use a standard configuration that works "out of the box" and put an option for advanced users that need it. Also you don't need to put any work into MadVR at all, because it's already there and works. You just need to add an option to DVBViewer that allows to user to select the desired renderer. Look at MPC-HC for example. It's simply an annoying limitation in an otherwise great software. And therefore I think it is a legitimate feature request...

Edited by LoRd_MuldeR

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azeman

+1 for adding the possibility to allow separate renderer(s).

 

Options are always good. And there would be one more argument for our "egg laying wool milk sow".

 

I am still on XP with overlay renderer, because it gives me the best picture quality.

All the VMRs and EVRs are somehow softer as overlay.

 

Perhaps offering this setting only in "tweaks" prevents the average user inadvertently using (and causing problems) with it.

 

Thanks for again thinking about it.

Edited by azeman

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Lars_MQ
There is absolutely no need for yet another special renderer.

+1.

 

You lost. :)

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desweil

I don't know how you make the 3rd party renderer available, but if it is as easy as making directx filters available then it sounds desirable.(as an option). How does DVBViewer access the MS Renderers? Is the madvr available to any directshow system or how does it work?

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Lars_MQ

Accessing the renderer is a highly complicated process and you have to write special code for each interface(s), especially the integration of the OSD is very complicated.

 

So the answer is: NO.

 

End of discussion. :)

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LoRd_MuldeR

I don't know how you make the 3rd party renderer available, but if it is as easy as making directx filters available then it sounds desirable.(as an option).

 

I don't have enough experience with DirectShow to tell you any details, but the fact that MadVR was added MPC-HC about one day after the initial release tells me that it's not that hard.

 

 

How does DVBViewer access the MS Renderers?

 

Through the DirectShow Framework (COM Interface), like all DirectShow filters.

 

 

Is the madvr available to any directshow system or how does it work?

 

Yes, it is. You can insert and test it with GraphEdit or GraphStudio.

Edited by LoRd_MuldeR

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nuts

I don't know how you make the 3rd party renderer available, but if it is as easy as making directx filters available then it sounds desirable.(as an option). How does DVBViewer access the MS Renderers? Is the madvr available to any directshow system or how does it work?

I think that wouldn't be the problem, but if you make the first step ...

MadVR ist still imho very buggy.

And than with LiveTV and the complex DVBV OSD? :whistle:

I like madvr with high quality scaling methods, dithering and this high quality processing stuff, but for the DVBV its not that easy like in mpc-hc!

 

Perhaps someone can write a plugin for exernal mediaplayers for media files. This would be my wish for 2010 :)

 

P.S. I hope someone can understand my english :biggrin:

Edited by nuts

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desweil

roger

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LoRd_MuldeR

Accessing the renderer is a highly complicated process and you have to write special code for each interface(s), especially the integration of the OSD is very complicated.

 

So the answer is: NO.

 

End of discussion. :)

 

Is that how feature requests are handled here? Very disappointing!

 

You should at lest show the honesty to admit that this a legitimate feature request and the request feature is wanted by many users, even if you currently don't have any plans to implement it.

 

It's not like anybody request it must be implemented till tomorrow. Put it on the TODO list for future improvements and that's it...

 

 

I think that wouldn't be the problem, but if you make the first step ...

MadVR ist still imho very buggy.

 

The latest version works very stable for me. Cannot say much about other people's experience.

 

But I can say at least that the author is very active in fixing problems...

Edited by LoRd_MuldeR

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bogdan1980

madevr is crap, period.

We need EVR Custom mode for future, along with better optimization.

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viewemen

madevr is crap, period.

We need EVR Custom mode for future, along with better optimization.

I'm interested too,and a function that will be upscaling welcome!

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NanoBot

Hi,

 

There is absolutely no need for yet another special renderer. The next as well as the current beta versions of the DVBViewer come with a very high optimized D3D renderer which can also use DXVA2 and shaders. We (especially Lars) spent a lot time to get it working with almost every OS and under even the worst conditions. So there are no plans to add a possible trouble maker.

 

Christian

 

Do I understand your statement right in the way that the upcoming D3D renderer can't be used with DXVA1 ? That would be a very bad news for me and a lot of other people, since latest publications in the internet claim that 74% of all Windows users still are still using Windows XP. And yes, under Windows XP a D3D based fullscreen playback using the VMR9 ( in "renderless mode" ) to avoid tearing is possible, since MPC-HC is using this for years.

 

 

C.U. NanoBot

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desweil

VMR9 custom renderer will be available as well.

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NanoBot

Thx for the answer, desweil, good to hear that the D3D renderer will also be available for XP users.

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Kuni

Hi,

 

 

 

Do I understand your statement right in the way that the upcoming D3D renderer can't be used with DXVA1 ? That would be a very bad news for me and a lot of other people, since latest publications in the internet claim that 74% of all Windows users still are still using Windows XP. And yes, under Windows XP a D3D based fullscreen playback using the VMR9 ( in "renderless mode" ) to avoid tearing is possible, since MPC-HC is using this for years.

 

 

C.U. NanoBot

 

That's %74 of Enterprise/Business users not home users.

 

MadVr DOESN'T use DXVA, so it's dead in the water as far as I'm concerned.

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Laserwave

+1 for madVR, problems aside, it does offer the best video quality and is very stable now, at least for mpc-hc.

Edited by Laserwave

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Benarty

+1 No.

 

 

Video quality is very difficult to detect by our eyes.

As with any compressed file, you may excpect a more then reasonable video quality in case of slow movements but as soon when the cameras are moving fast, the typical mpeg

artefacts show up. And, even when the media computer shows no severe artefacts, the LCD sreen kan be the next in the chain that produces artefacts if the engine behind the screen has trouble

to decode the stream in real time...not to forget that LCD's calculate these days extra frames (100/200/600Hz) with our without combination of black frames.

So video engine has to do additional calculations for these extra frames.

 

Digital video without any artefacts: simply : does not exist.

 

About renderer: I rather see a renderer where the DVBViewer programma's have full access to, so focussing on this renderer.

Then DVBViewer users can add valid suggestions/bug comments etc on the forums.

 

External renderers: fine but another component that can cause alot of trouble.

 

So: no no no no.

 

 

The OS: You don't put a large engine into a small car.

XP is just fine for mediacenter use and more compact then the huge windows 7.

Slow boot etc? Install a SolidState Disk , put windows on it, and drivers and DVBViewer and decoders, add a normal slow running harddisk as recording and download , use power saving so that this harddisk shuts off if it's not needed.

Edited by Benarty

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balky

So, this has been going on for almost a year now and I wonder if the DVBV gurus have had a change of heart and decided to add support for madVR.

 

This is the most awesome renderer of the moment and it will be a great idea to have it work with DVBV.

 

There is also the LAV decoders and LAVCUVID decoder for those (like me) who use NVIDIA GPUs. Any chances DVBV will be able to use these?

 

I won't be surprised for the usual blunt NO, but I must say that time is getting past the days when a program does only one thing good and the rest are seen as add-ons.

 

When will DVBV be able to play MKV flies with full subtitile support and HD audio bitstreaming (with ffdshow or LAV) from the MKV container?

 

The list starts pilling up, and before you know it DVBV will become a grandpa of DVB-S. There won't be any interest in seeing movies in DVBV as there are other players who can do a more outstanding job with these new codecs / filters...

 

just my 0.02$

 

Feel free to crucify me if you want, I understand the truth is bitter... :-)

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desweil

the name is DVBViewer, not MKV-Bluray-Rip-Viewer.

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sw4y

the name is DVBViewer, not MKV-Bluray-Rip-Viewer.

 

Deine Beiträge sind irgendwie immer so unglaublich unproduktiv... Weiß nicht, irgendwie wollte ich das mal loswerden.

 

Just my 2 cents...

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desweil

I just don't think that implementing HD audio bitstreaming on mkv containers or another 3rd party renderer should be the main topic for the DVBViewer developers. I also think that there isn't and never will be the one and only program that does it all. XBMC for example does a better job for media presentation. DVBViewer will never reach that. VLC plays all kinds of files. DVBViewer will not reach that, it's dependent on the directshow system and 3rd party filters. That's why I think DVBViewer should concentrate on DVB Topics, especially considering the small number of developers.

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CiNcH
There is also the LAV decoders and LAVCUVID decoder for those (like me) who use NVIDIA GPUs. Any chances DVBV will be able to use these?

I don't have an nVIDIA GPU (well, actually I have a 8600GTS card, but don't use it anymore) and I don't really know what's necessary for LAVCUVID to work. But if it is a common DirectShow filter that also does NALU parsing for H.264, it should work within the DVBViewer. Or what's the problem?

 

When will DVBV be able to play MKV flies with full subtitile support and HD audio bitstreaming (with ffdshow or LAV) from the MKV container?

At least subtitles work like a charm here in DXVA mode with ffdshow. Splitter is either Haali or LAV. DVBViewer even supports stream switching for those splitters (audio and subtitles).

What's the problem with audio bitstreaming? Think this is also only a matter of using a proper splitter/decoder/renderer combination. I don't have the possibility to test that.

 

With latest DVBViewer Pro, I can play a seamless branching BD with DTS-HD MA software decoding just perfectly using 'LAV Splitter', 'LAV Audio' + ArcSoft DTS-HD MA decoding library and ffdshow DXVA, including subtitles. 'LAV Audio' should also be able to bitstream audio.

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sw4y

I just don't think that implementing HD audio bitstreaming on mkv containers or another 3rd party renderer should be the main topic for the DVBViewer developers. I also think that there isn't and never will be the one and only program that does it all. XBMC for example does a better job for media presentation. DVBViewer will never reach that. VLC plays all kinds of files. DVBViewer will not reach that, it's dependent on the directshow system and 3rd party filters. That's why I think DVBViewer should concentrate on DVB Topics, especially considering the small number of developers.

 

100 % agree!

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majstang

I know this is a sensitive and awkward topic to discuss, but for the vitality of DVBViewer it must be done. I'm glad Balky raises such an argument, cuz

lately I have been wondering about why there is no vision any longer. No developer tells us what they have in store for us, what their plans are developing

DVBViwer further, at least not in the English part of the forum. There seem not be any strategy or goal any longer, there is no communication from developers

side about new visions and plans. The only thing I see is how new ideas and suggestions from users often get hatched down (not necessarily by moderators) or

most commonly ignored completely. To me new features, especially for the DVBViewer comes out of the blue, they are simply there one day (with exception from

the Mheg-5 engine and unicode migration). I guess these discussions goes on in the German forum or private discussions, which the rest of the world misses

out on.

 

I like the fact Balky manages to create a disscusion about what direction DVBViewer should be heading and he is right about "The list starts pilling up, and

before you know it DVBV will become a grandpa of DVB-S" and that would mean goodnight for DVBViewer as a concept. No not entirely, not as long as Lars is

driving the RS project which is the most inovative and cutting edge I have seen in a very long time. However it can't take long before the competitors will

launch something similar and then what? It may be the resources are scares and very few developers, but I would love to know more about their intensions

anyway and not reading between the lines as one have to do today.

 

Sadly, when the main programmer complains about being caught up in administrative duties and solely customer service, instead of focusing all the time

available on programming and communicating visions for DVBViewer, the concept is in dire straits and the risk Balky is talking about is imminent. Of course

economics and funding is key, things being as they are, but I'm sure many people out there are willing to pay a lot more for a really good software.

Especially if the software is the best one utilizing every part of a Media Center system. For the DVBViewer (RS excluded) it is really good on just the DVB

part. Other functions such as fileplay mode it is far below standard. Also no efforts are being done integrating the DVBViewer into a full blown Media Center

software. Now it is relying on plugins and various third party software in order for the user to realize a fully integrated Media Center. This vision has to

be crucial to make the business grow considerably.

 

Developers also wants us to buy DVBViewer more than once and this is very understandable, but keep in mind if the users ideas and suggestions to develop

DVBViewer further gets ignored, the motivation to spend money on additional licences gets very low. There has to be some kind good mix in responding to user

ideas and realizing the own ideas alone.

 

We as users have a responsibility to make our wishes clear to the developers and I do miss the "user top whish-list for new features" which usually is

present on every forum for other software. Now all ideas and suggestions are scattered all around the forum. Maybe there's someone willing to put together

such a thing, the more viewers and support the wish has the better placed it will be on the wish-list. The motivation for keeping such a wish-list depends on

the developers will grant us the best placed wishes, no matter how much it contradicts devs unspoken plans. Such a setup has to be be very good for both

goodwill and cash flow.

 

So, I do hope nobody takes my argumentation the wrong way. As, many of you already have noticed, I'm a big fan of the DVBViewer concept and I want nothing

else than to see the project to succeed and grow for a long time to come. It's just when following a project closely you start to see things that leave

plenty of room for improvements and pointing it out can be vitalizing if it gets received without provoking too much aggravation.

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balky

For me, this is about progress and diversity.

 

I am talking about what the future holds for HTPC usage altogether.

 

Take a quick look at others like J River, Sage, Media-Portal... to mention a few... you might understand what I mean...

 

Even MPC-HC now has in-bulit video capture which I won't be surprised might start to support DVB in the future...

 

In the current state of matter, the average user is looking on ways to do as much as possible from a single tool, the days of switching between applications closing one and opening another for different functionalities is gradually coming to an end and will soon become obsolete.

 

If for example, a paid plugin can be provided to allow seamless launching of other applications with DVBV, this can be considered a step forward, or if a plugin can be provided to allow DVBV to be launched with windows media center for example, this would also be a nice way forward.

I understand you can do this on your own by reading manuals and searching the net, but the majority of the loyal users will be willing to pay for such plugins instead of spending hours trying to learn and getting bashed around inside forums.

 

Just for your information I ended up buying a DVBLogic tv server license for my main HTPC instead of a second DVBV license. The DVBLogic allows me to use live tv inside windows media center and from the same interface TMT5 is automatically started when I want to see blu-ray, and the media center internal player handles all the remaining video formats. All controlled via a remote control that I didn't have to program or map any keys myself.

My DVBV installation is on the HTPC I have in the bedroom which we turn on only once in a while.

 

Usage of madVR in DVBV is something that should be obvious in my opinion, let alone bitstreaming of HD audio on both blu-ray and MKV titles.

 

It is not a bad idea that DVBV remains focused on DVB only, but we shall see how longer out into the future the idea will hold.

 

My passion for DVBV is what drives me here, hope you understand me...

Edited by balky

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CiNcH
Usage of madVR in DVBV is something that should be obvious in my opinion

In my opinion, DXVA + Custom Presenter is just as good as LAVCUVID + madVR, at least when no scaling is involved (1080 source on 1080 screen).

 

I would rather like to see more progress on the Custom Presenter like better scaling or a synchronization mechanism.

 

let alone bitstreaming of HD audio on both blu-ray and MKV titles.

Did you actually read my posting? For me, Blu-Ray and MKV playback works perfectly within DVBViewer, including HD audio and subtitles.

I can't test HD audio bitstreaming so please tell me what is needed in order to get this working. I thought it was just a matter of the right decoder. I know that ffdshow and LAV Audio support bitstreaming.

 

Do you only want to argue or help finding a solution?

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balky

In my opinion, DXVA + Custom Presenter is just as good as LAVCUVID + madVR, at least when no scaling is involved (1080 source on 1080 screen).

 

I would rather like to see more progress on the Custom Presenter like better scaling or a synchronization mechanism.

 

 

Did you actually read my posting? For me, Blu-Ray and MKV playback works perfectly within DVBViewer, including HD audio and subtitles.

I can't test HD audio bitstreaming so please tell me what is needed in order to get this working. I thought it was just a matter of the right decoder. I know that ffdshow and LAV Audio support bitstreaming.

 

Do you only want to argue or help finding a solution?

 

 

You can bet I am willing to do all I can to help in moving DVBV forward... :-)

 

I know I tried about a year ago to see if HD audio bitstreaming with ffdshow works in DVBV, but it didn't work.

 

I will try again over the weekend and let you know what I find.

 

Progress on the custom renderer is also an excellent one and that's what I'm talking about...

 

If DVBV doesn't use madVR or LAV CUVID, but has equivalent replacements, the app will continue to shine as ever...

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nuts

HD Auido bitstreaming (DTS-HD @ screenshot) works fine on my system :)

 

Imho you can only test hd bitstreaming with an external decoder (i.e av receiver >= hdmi 1.3)

post-39934-0-45255100-1307734576_thumb.png

Edited by nuts

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CiNcH

@ nuts,

 

you are not bitstreaming DTS-HD audio IMHO, as DVB Source only propagates DTS Core and throws away the HD part. In order to bitstream DTS-HD you'll have to use LAV Splitter.

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nuts

My av receiver detects the stream as dts master hd with LAV-Deocder.

With AC3 filter the stream is detected as dts.

 

Seems to work as it should (maybe griga knows more about it?).

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CiNcH

Interesting. Griga added support for DTS/AC3 Core within DTS-HD MA/Dolby TrueHD within mt2s in version 3.2.0.

- Wiedergabe der verschiedenen Video- und Audioformate in m2ts-Dateien (Blue Ray-Dateityp), wie VC-1, DTS-HD oder Dolby TrueHD, vorausgesetzt ein passender Decoder ist installiert. In den meisten Fällen wird der bekannte AC3 Filter für Audio ausreichen, da der DVBViewer Filter in der Lage ist, einen rückwärts-kompatiblen AC3/DTS-Kern aus den neuen HD-Formaten zu extrahieren.

According to the changelog he has not changed that ever since.

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nuts

Ah LAV Deocder is a little bit tricky.

 

You can enable "DTS-HD frame packing for all DTS sources". :whistle:

 

Works (detected by av receiver) wihtout that option by using LAV-Splitter!

 

edit\ Real DTS-HD bitstreaming with DVBViewer, ffdshow audio decoder and LAV-Splitter (system @ sig.) :)

post-39934-0-09832300-1307741467_thumb.png

Edited by nuts

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CiNcH

To sum it up...

 

- HD audio is possible when using a proper splitter/decoder combination (e.g. LAV Splitter + LAV Audio or ffdshow).

 

- BD(m2ts/mpls)/MKV subtitles are possible when using a proper splitter/decoder combination (e.g. LAV Splitter or Haali). In order to use hardware acceleration together with subtitles, one has to use ffdshow DXVA. Keep in mind that ffdshow H.264 and VC-1 video decoders do not properly work together with DVB Source filter. So you may want to define two separate DirectShow graphs, one for DVB and one for file playback (see Graph A/B functionality within DVBViewer DirectX options).

 

So you see it is just a matter of setting up DirectShow properly.

 

 

So what's the problem with LAVCUVID exactly? What happens if you set this decoder within DVBViewer's DirectX options? It may very well be that LAVCUVID does not do NALU parsing, as LAV Splitter already does it. DVB Source filter expects the decoder to do NALU parsing. But you can still use LAVCUVID together with LAV Splitter for BD and MKV. Just not together with DVB Source.

Keep in mind that you can't use BD/MKV subtitles in DVBViewer when using this decoder.

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CiNcH

According to nevcairiel, the developer of LAVCUVID, the decoder does all the parsing and should work with any splitter, also the DVB Source filter.

 

Did you actually try it? Guys, you really need to try things. To me it seems that anything written here is just based on assumptions.

 

And if it does not work, please at least provide a detailed error report.

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