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jackdp

Stereoscopic 3D

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jackdp

There is first stereoscopic 3D test transmission from Eurobird 9.0E satellite.

Channel name is 3DSatTV.

Signal is transmitted in side-by-side format (left-right).

I have 3D TV Set which do not accept that format, I need horizontal or vertical interlaced format or checkerboard format.

I think that DVBViewer can translate formats in real time.

What do you think?

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Lars_MQ

Yes we will most likely integrate it. just look out for version 6 or 7 in the next years. ;)

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Griga

Most likely it must be supported by the video decoder. So write to the Cyberlink devs, ffdshow devs etc.

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Lars_MQ

Well it depends also on the 3D system. I think for the shutter stuff must be controlled also... I don't know if the decoder does handle this...

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Griga

The left/right pictures are encoded in a special way (see latest c't magazine), and this is the first thing that must be handled by the decoder. Otherwise no go.

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Lars_MQ

Ah ok. So we better wait until there are more reliable sources. The c't is not really a magazine I would really trust anymore. ;)

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Griga

Well, I've read the article (it's quite technical), and I know enough about video internals to tell whether it's rubbish or not.

 

Actually, what jackdp wants

 

I think that DVBViewer can translate formats in real time.

is live-transforming (or even worse: re-encoding?) a 3D format to the one required by his TV set, and that's science fiction.

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mr_chaela
Actually, what jackdp wants

 

 

is live-transforming (or even worse: re-encoding?) a 3D format to the one required by his TV set, and that's science fiction.

I think you will find that Stereoscopic Player does real time conversion.

hxxp://www.3dtv.at/Index_en.aspx

I've been trying to find a means of streaming 3DSatTV from DVBViewer into Stereoscopic Player, only solution seemed to be start timeshift on DVBViewer and direct Stereoscopic Player to the file but it always stopped after 4 mins. A recorded file would play fine.

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jackdp

Lars_MQ - more optimism please ;-) One or two days is enough to add stereoscopic functionality.

 

Griga - decoder has nothing common with stereoscopic video. Stereoscopic frame is decoded as normal frame, it just looks differently. Side-by-side (left-right) looks like two frames squeezed horizontally and placed together. So you see two frames (left and right) in place of one.

 

Lars_MQ - shutter staff is controlled directly by TV Set, do not worry about that.

 

Griga - side-by-side is encoded exactly the same way like 2D frame.

 

Side-by-side have to be converted to others standards. The transformation is easy:

 

1. Separate left and right halves of decoded frame (they will have 50% of original horizontal resolution).

2. Scale both frames (left and right) to size of output window (or full resolution of the 3D display). In case of my Samsung PS50B451 TV Set the resolution is 1360x768, other 3D TV sets and monitors can have different resolution. I recommend solution similar to used in Stereoscopic Player. There is possibility to set which display should be used for full screen.

3. Convert full size left & right frames to selected 3D format for example:

a. horizontal interlaced format - compose output frame from odd lines of left frame and even lines or right frame.

b. vertical interlaced format - compose output frame from odd columns of left frame and even columns of right frame.

c. checkerboard format - compose output frame from odd pixels in odd lines and even pixels in even lines of left frame and even pixels in odd lines and odd pixels in even lines of right frame.

 

That is all. Just bitmap manipulations.

 

Here you have some info about stereoscopic 3D formats:

http://www.jvc.eu/3d_monitor/technology/video.html

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speedyking

Yes ... its time to make DVBViewer 3D Ready !

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tecram

I support the idea. It's the near (and present) future in TV and games. It's necessary a new plugin or render that support stereoscopic and anaglyphic 3DSat. Something like Stereoscopic player, with many viewing modes for a variety of glasses (that support new DLPs 3DReady and past models).

 

Thx for all!.

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wlx

Next fifa world cup will be in 3D.

 

Was announced 8 matchs in 3D in the next fifa world cup, next june. Just in one month.

 

details here:

http://presscentre.sony.eu/content/detail....mp;NewsAreaId=2

 

Digital+ in Spain will offer it through HD decoder iplus.

http://www.plus.es/articulo/Futbol/Canal-e...luutmftb_2/Tes/

 

So pcsat like HVR-4000 working with DVBViewer could be a nice alternative, buying glasses, of course.

 

Correct me if I mistake.

 

The 3D signal needs a HD decoder. The source signal send left and right eye into the screen. The decoder will take half left and show it to full screen, then the half right screen and show extended to full screen alternatively.

 

With specific glasses, each eye will ignore one of both image showed alternatively (from left and right arriving half). Using a high refreshing the brain doesn't note anything and each eye is receiving only the half image not ignored by each eye glass.

 

We will need the appropiate glases. The TV used I think is not important, because, for example D+ is announcing only iplus (HD decoder is needed, after updating firmware), and sony TV is doing the same, also they are giving you the glases.

 

If it's so, It could be easy to do the implementation for HD pcsat. Really?

 

Salu2

Edited by wlx

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Lars_MQ
The decoder will take half left and show it to full screen, then the half right screen and show extended to full screen alternatively.

And depending on your system signalling the TV/beamer to polarize / activate shutter. Well how you do it? I haven't a clue. :)

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tecram
And depending on your system signalling the TV/beamer to polarize / activate shutter.

 

You think isn't posible to translate Stereoscopic Player functions to DVBViewer?

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Lars_MQ

Oh it most likely will be. Sometime in the future. :bounce:

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wlx

If i'm not missunderstanding the idea, the HD stream will be a 1920x1080 picture. Containing the same frame shown on the whole screen. Half left screen for left eye in 960x1080, and half right screen for right eye also in 960x1080.

 

The decoder might cut each half image and extend it alternatively on the screen applying polarization or maybe single colour to send to each eye both images. High refresh on streaming will give soft transition on video.

 

I think, management on individual color on each half image could be possible, but it could needs hardware implementation to run fine, or software based in a powerful graphic hardware.

 

I'm not an expertise. I'm doing a brainstorming on this matter.

 

If you have a video stream signal, and you know the stream signal is sent on HD showing both eyes on the screen. The proccesing video signal must to select half let, and extend to whole screen, and after the half right, and then next frame of video using high refresh freq.

 

Once you have this implementation on video stream management, you could apply a filter to delete magenta in one half and delete the cyan in the other one.

 

Maybe, this could need a expensive computer, or maybe not......it's the question which hasn't answer from me.

 

Even the video steam, is sent for polarized glasses and source (TV, projector...etc), If you have versatile software equipment as pcsat/DVBViewer, maybe you could modify the frames on colour to get 3D effect for use with glasses, red/blue or magenta/cyan (better the second one, because is including all basic colours (red, blue, yellow).

 

If a 3d stream is sent, it means, than 2 images from 2 differents views is sent, then you must to show each one to each eye. As you have both views, you can manage it to use polarized, or color way to send it on each eye

 

Salu2

Edited by wlx

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wlx

I tested stream from DVBViewer to stereoscopic player and it works perfectly (WHY NOT?)

 

I'll try to capture a video when 3d channel works, and with stereoscopic player you can show the mixed sidebyside images, in anaglyph (i hope english word exists) mode that you choose, so we can see 3d in a tv or projector standard.

 

Salu2.

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wlx

A problem found from info of last post, is that when I'm checking if all is running well, the stereoscopic player stops to play. I might to buy license, but in any case, I suppose also that a plugin doing the same proccess than stereoscopic player, could work better, avoiding the streaming proccess. And now I'm sure it's possible, but not from me.

 

Salu2

Edited by wlx

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wlx

An example uploaded for wiciu in tododream forum about stereoscopic can do with side by side images from sat.

 

Or maybe what DVBViewer 3D plugin can do when it exists.

 

tenis3d.png

 

To see 3D, use red/cyan glasses

 

Salu2

Edited by wlx

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Lars_MQ

Well we could make it that way, that you simple glue two smaller monitors to each of your eyes. That would be more effective than using a system from 50 or 60 years ago... ;)

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Víctor P.

Well, this is something that I'm also looking forward to seeing implemented in DVBViewer soon (before the World Cup 2010!) and it looks like "others" have taken this more seriously so far ...

 

ProgDVB v6.41.1. Basic support of 3DTV. In this version only anaglyph. Omicom diseq support,Small improvements or scheduler and other parts.

 

Rock on DVBViewer!! :angry:

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Víctor P.

Yes, you're absolutely right. I just got it to work :angry: Thanks for pointing that out!

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mborkP

Yes, you're absolutely right. I just got it to work :angry: Thanks for pointing that out!

 

Also, you can use Nvidia 3D player or recently released TMT 3D plugin. I just tested it on French Open transmission. Tune to the 3D channel and start record. Then open the recording file in any of above and here you go. Latest Nvidia player support streaming, TMT3 as well but I'm not sure if it will work with DVBV. TMT 3D plugin supports all 3D formats and apparently does on the fly 2D to 3D.

Has anyone tested streaming from DVBV to any of the mentioned programs?

Thanks

Edited by mborkP

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madsilence

Hi.

I'll add something from myself...

There are some 3D test russian channels on Eurobird 9E. They are not for viewing with anaglyph glasses (red-green, red-cyan) but Sensio 3D encoding. Frequencies/channels are these:

3D tests 11747 H 27500-3/4 DVB

HD 1 11881 V 27500-2/3 8PSK DVB-S2

3DV promo 12054 H 27500-2/3 8PSK DVB-S2

I know that provider (PlatformaHD) sells expensive special TV-sets for Sensio. The question is : is it possible to make view these channels LIVE as well stereoscopically but with anaglyph glasses instead this expensive TV-sets? The main idea is transcode Sensio to anaglyph system. Anyone can buy red-cyan glasses for frice of 0.5 to 5 euros. Maybe there is no need to repeat all the output features that Stereoscopic Player supports...only implement some of them - anaglyph and NVidia shutter glasses???

 

As said some posts above for playback files (NOT LIVE!) I followed these steps :

I've recordes some 3D tests content into *.ts file with the aid of DVBViewer and playback this file with Stereoscopic Player 1.6.4. Stereoscopic Player's input settings are 'Sensio' and output are 'Anaglyph red-cyan glasses'. I receive the correctly scaled anaglyph-like picture on my standart FullHD 60Hz Asus monitor. Unfortunately I don't have red-cyan glasses at home to check if picture is 100% correct but it seems to be.

Another detail : Stereoscopic Player doesn't support DXVA for Cyberlink PDVD9 codecs - DXVA turned on but doesnt work (I use CoreAVC because of lower CPU usage). Its clear why , because Stereoscopic Player rips Sensio FullHD stream and after assembles anaglyph FullHD stream and there is only one acceleration DXVA unit inside the graphic card. Is it possible to use DXVA for transcoding between 3D systems?? Or everything should be made in 'software mode'??? Because without DXVA it takes too much processor time and needs fast modern CPUs.

Edited by madsilence

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vdl

Is it possible to add some config option in DVBViewer to support custom EVR Presenters ( http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb530107(v=VS.85).aspx#SettingthePresenterontheEVR ) ? I have nvidia 3d vision hardware but only way i can see 3d channels is by netstreaming channel and then watching it with stereoscopic player. I could write custom EVR presenter for nvidia 3d vision but then DVBViewer needs some config option to enable custom EVR presenters (preferably per channel as it would distort normal channels). Or maybe custom renderer directshow chain - 3dtv.at stereo transformer + 3dtv.at stereo renderer with possibility to call stereo transformer's settings dialog to set transformation properties.

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vdl

i'll try to achieve it by using pluginapi and GetGraph to modify evr renderer and set custom presenter for it.

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vdl

halfway there - i managed to insert custom evr presenter into graph. got some image output. currently shuttering with black frames, but it's a start.

todo:

* fix black frames

* implement offscreen surface instead of passing backbuffer to evr

* finally copy surface to backbuffer using nvidia stereo header to achieve 3d vision

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Benarty

Well, DVBViewer is not decoding the video so it should be possible.

But: the current solutions to show 3D are far from optimal.

 

They rely on the limitations of our eyes but expect eyes without any deformations.

So there are people on this planet, including me that simply can not see the 3D effect, not even with a shutter system.

Ok, it's clear when a 3D video is playing if you look to the screen without two colored glasses, shutter glasses or ,whatever is needed to reach the crappy 3D.

 

And don't be fooled, even if You can see the effect: Your brain is not stupid, what happens is: the eyes do infact detect that something is fishy with the video

and have to concentrate more, call it : stay on focus. The brain , which has to process the data stream will have to work harder .

 

How do we humans see 3D?

You might expect in fact that we see 3D because the distance between our eyes.

The only thing that happens, the second eye is adding a wider field of view,

What does change is the the way moving objects from behind show, two eyes can detect moving items near both edges of each eye.

One eyed will miss one of the two in horizontal field of view.

 

3D TV's = bogus 3D

 

I rather see less video or even close to lossless compressing which leads de facto to a better image quality.

No fake HD, so upscaled SD material. TV's that have faster hardware cause sure the cheapo TV's : do know that the hardware within the TV is too slow when it comes to fast video,

for example, fast camera movements. Show artefacts there are also caused by slow hardware.

 

 

Conclusion: dump the 3D and start first with more decent video quality.

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vdl

i'm having a bit problem there - i cant set custom presenter if graph is already built. but if i'm breaking graph, then set custom presenter and fix graph - i get flickering picture. presenter works fine in test program. so maybe there is possiblity to code some config variable (CLSID) for custom presenter which should be set when building graph?

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vdl

almost there - after some time with com hooking

img.2010.12.27.BSXgXR.jpg

 

now i can hook evr rendering - so in theory i could use final drawing to split for 3d vision

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vdl

fail :|

default evr presenter doesnt use fullscreen directx window which is required for nvidia 3d vision to work.

back to step 2 - using plugin to inject custom presenter in evr via dshow

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Andreas Pross

fail :|

default evr presenter doesnt use fullscreen directx window which is required for nvidia 3d vision to work.

 

I am not sure you need fullscreen directx window. Nvidia managed to play 3D contentn with 3d Vision in a window with Microsoft Silverlight Player. So it should be possible in window. Take a look at the Nvidia Streaming Channel: http://www.nvidia.de/3dvisionlive

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Andreas Pross

I downloadded the Stereoscopic Player from 3dtv.at which provides stereoscopic directX renderer. In Graphedit, I was able to build a graph which plays the stereoscopic content. And as I can remember, there was a Plugin for DVBViewer to build custom graphs. But I couldn't find this Plugin anymore. Maybe it is not supported in the new version ??

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evgen_ln

back to step 2 - using plugin to inject custom presenter in evr via dshow

You can easily get access to the DVBViewers graph via plugin interface. It is also easy to determine moment when channel switching. Channel list records structure contains reserved bits that can be used for marking 3d channels. Need help? Ask questions.

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Andreas Pross

I wasn't able to find the plugin to build custom graphs. But there could be another problem. The stereoscopic player from 3dtv.at, which supplies DirectShow Filters for 3D Playback, supports 3D only in DirectX FullScreen, which may not be supported by DVBViewer as I read in previous posts.

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beach

Hi,

maybe I am misunderstanding something, but DVBViewer can do dx fullscreen exclusive mode. Just put this under <section name="MPEG"> in your setup.xml in the config folder: <entry name="D3DExclusive">1</entry>.

I hope this helps.

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Andreas Pross

OK, DX Fullscreen works.

Now I need to build a Graph like the attached in DVBViewer, but I don't know how. How could I build a custom Graph in DVBViewer?

 

3DGraph.jpg

Edited by Andreas Pross

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evgen_ln

OK, you can add the 3dtv.at filter to the DVBviewers graph using Postprocessor Plugin (members section), but only anaglyph will work at result. Other modes work only with 3dtv.at stereo renderer, which are not supported by the DVBViewer.

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evgen_ln

I see only two methods to support nVidia 3D active glasses by the DVBViewer.

First create a filter that will divide input frame into two parts and placing each in a new frame and will send a synchronization event via nVidia 3D Vision api. This method does not require intervention to the renderer but there may be problems with synchronization.

Second do same directly in the renderer by custom presenter. In this case we get a good sync but this method implementation isn't possible without the DVBViewer developers involvement.

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