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leecovuk

Transedit wrongly classifying 'dead' channels

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leecovuk

Hello,

 

I've had a situation, on 3 separate runs of Transedit, where the same 4 channels have been classified 'dead' whilst they are in fact active.

Transedit preview displays the picture or sound as normal active broadcasts as does DVBViewer itself.

 

I run Transedit only when DVBViewer is not open.

 

I am using Transedit 3.6.0.0 and DVBViewer 4.5.0.0

 

In case it helps pinpoint what I or Transedit are doing wrong, I am attaching to this post :

 

1) Transedit.ini

 

2) A screenshot of one of the 4 channels in DVBViewer's Channel Editor.

Before taking this screen grab, I had updated the channel list in Transedit after the scan, and closed Transedit. Then opened DVBViewer.

 

If I can help any further, feel free to ask me for anything specific.

 

Thanks,

Lee

UK

post-100181-051680900 1287122403_thumb.jpg

TransEdit.ini

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Derrick

You'd better uncheck in transedit "scan NIT" and "always scan with auto FEC detection". The NIT is not very reliable and with auto fec you might miss dvb-s2 transponders..

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Griga
I've had a situation, on 3 separate runs of Transedit, where the same 4 channels have been classified 'dead' whilst they are in fact active.

From the TransEdit manual:

 

Please regard the displayed dead channels as suggestion, not as fact. Maybe they are only temporarily missing, because they are not receivable due to bad weather conditions or other reasons. Particularly when scanning transponders that deliver no results, TransEdit may wrongly assume that channels from another satellite position are dead, if the orbital position is missing in the channel list data. In case of doubt use the Preview function to assure that a channel is really „off air“.

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leecovuk

You'd better uncheck in transedit "scan NIT" and "always scan with auto FEC detection". The NIT is not very reliable and with auto fec you might miss dvb-s2 transponders..

Hello Derrick and thanks for your reply.

 

I'll try that later and see if it makes a difference. I'll then report back.

 

However if I don't scan with NIT, wouldn't I have to manually check and update the transponder lists to make sure I'm scanning everything available? If so, presumably it would be better to scan with NIT and tolerate the experience I reported? (if it appears NIT is causing it)

 

Hello Griga,

 

I was already aware of what the manual says, but I was questioning the behaviour because my issue seemed to be happening consistently with certain channels.

 

Thanks,

Lee

Edited by leecovuk

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Griga

Does it happen after scanning Hotbird or another satellite position?

 

If it happens after a Hotbird scan, please attach your (zipped) channels.dat and Hotbird transponder list here. Then I will try to reproduce the issue.

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leecovuk

Hello again Griga,

 

Yes, those channels are on Hotbird.

First, can I make sure I'm using / understanding things correctly ... I might be repeating the issue due to my error or indeed scanning pointlessly.

How I scan is as follows :

 

With DVBViewer closed, I open Transedit.

TransEdit.exe is in Program Files/DVBViewer

The transponder lists in Transedit appear to be derived from Program Files/DVBViewer/Transponders. Is that correct?

 

I then select a satellite in the left panel of Transedit and hit 'Scan All' on the right panel.

The scan takes place and ends, showing the results.

Filters 1 and 2 are set to 'Both' and Filter 3 has everything ticked.

If there are Dead Channels (apparently FTA ones) in the results I preview them in Transedit and try to make a decision to delete or keep them.

 

I then move on to the parts where I am traditionally confused and might be making an error or doing pointless actions. Indeed my use of Export Settings described below may not serve any purpose in my scenario :

 

I have previously re-named the satellites in DVBViewer using Channel Editor. They are named ASTRA 1, ASTRA 2, HISPASAT and HOTBIRD.

Looking at the scan results screen in Transedit, I go to Export Settings and set Category to 'Initial Letter'.

I have Root options of (for example)

HOTBIRD

and

Hot Bird 6/8/9 13.0°E

I have never understood whether the latter is derived from Program Files/DVBViewer/Transponders or Program Data/CMUV/DVBViewer/Transponders

I assume HOTBIRD is what I want so I select it.

 

I pull the scrollbar to the top of the results and click on 'Name' 3 times to sort by name, ascending A to Z.

I right-click on the results and choose 'Select All'.

In the DVBViewer Channel List panel I select 'Add / Update'.

I close the results window and Transedit.

I am usually prompted to save 0130.ini and I click 'Yes'.

 

I am then in the habit of copying the modified transponder list from Program Data/CMUV/DVBViewer/Transponders to Program Files/DVBViewer/Transponders

This is because it seems otherwise the list in Program Files/DVBViewer/Transponders is not modified to match the newly modified one in Program Data/CMUV/DVBViewer/Transponders

It concerns and confuses me to have two different transponder lists for the same satellite.

 

I then open DVBViewer and use it.

 

So, if you could kindly confirm my usage or clarify my confusion, I can then try some more scanning.

 

Thanks a lot,

Lee

UK

 

PS I really have tried to read and understand the documentation. Maybe I am just stupid? :)

Edited by leecovuk

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Derrick

However if I don't scan with NIT..

 

your transedit.ini reads:

 

cbScanNIT=1

 

..means your transponder list will be updated according to entries found in the NIT. (e.g. the table can contains wrong modulation parameters which could result in dead channels ;) )

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Griga

Transponder lists are only read from / written to the Configuration Folder (Program Data/CMUV/DVBViewer/Transponders in your case). The transponder lists in Program Files/DVBViewer/Transponders are supposed to be a backup of the original (installed) files.

 

For security reasons Windows usually doesn't allow write access to the Program Files directory (at least Vista / 7), except with administrator rights. So all files that may be changed by the user must be stored in a directory where the user / the application is allowed to change / create files.

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leecovuk

Griga, do you agree with Derrick's words about using NIT or Auto FEC? I think you and I have the same card Griga, so your and my usage should presumably be the same.

 

Was there anything flawed or wrong with my detailed description of how I scan?

Once I am confident of what I am doing, I'll try some more scans with or without my Transedit FEC and NIT settings.

 

Thank you,

Lee

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Griga
Griga, do you agree with Derrick's words about using NIT or Auto FEC?

Yes.

 

A NIT scan lets TransEdit adopt transponder parameters from the NIT (the broadcasted Network Information Table), and they are not always reliable, as experience showed. Sometimes the NIT is useful (e.g. in DVB-C networks), but in other cases it may deliver wrong data.

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leecovuk

ok, thanks Griga.

 

So, to clarify because I want to be absolutely confident on this ...

 

1)

If I don't use Auto FEC or NIT in Transedit, I should manually edit the transponder lists in Program Data/CMUV/DVBViewer/Transponders before scanning to make sure they are up to date? eg by looking at sites such as lyngsat.

Is that correct, although tedious?

 

2)

I noted your earlier post about why Program Files/DVBViewer/Transponders is not updated.

So those lists play no part in either Transedit or DVBViewer scans and just serve a purpose of being an original backup?

 

3)

You haven't pointed put any errors or misunderstandings on my scanning / saving techniques, so I should continue with the sequence I described in detail?

 

4)

I will stop using Auto FEC and NIT in Transedit.

 

Thanks,

Lee

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leecovuk

Hello again,

 

Can somebody knowledgeable please answer the points in the last post?

I'm sure you can appreciate that there is no point in my pursuing habits that may be wrong. Without knowing excactly what to do, software such at this is little more than a toy. Yes, I have read and re-read the docs and various forum posts, and even though I joke about being stupid, I really am not!

 

Also, I believe Griga said recently that Hauppauge cards need the Pilot Symbol and Rolloff values for DVB-S2 channels. However, if I have to enter transponder details manually, where can I find those parameters? Lyngsat and Kingofsat don't seem to have them, including Kingofsat's downloadable transponder lists.

Fastsatfinder also has downloadable transponder lists, but their format seems the same as Kingofsat's lists.

 

I'm aware there are one or two posts on here stating the mathematics involved in calculating some transponder parameters for DVBViewer's transponder lists, but frankly I cannot understand them. If I need to make the calculations manually to insert correct values into the transponder lists, can somebody please offer a very clear and simple method of doing so.

 

Or even better, please supply a constantly up-to date supply of suitably formatted transponder lists. Obviously, from one day or week to the next, they change.

I'm sure scanning shouldn't be this difficult!

 

Thanks a lot,

Lee

 

PS My frustration had sent me back to ProgDVB, which itself opened up new frustrations. I have now given up on ProgDVB and am hoping for resolution here with DVBViewer.

Edited by leecovuk

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Griga
Also, I believe Griga said recently that Hauppauge cards need the Pilot Symbol and Rolloff values for DVB-S2 channels.

Pilot Symbols yes, but Roll-Off doesn't seem to have a significant effect. You can leave it set to 0.35 throughout.

 

However, if I have to enter transponder details manually, where can I find those parameters?

By trial and error :) However, you can let the TransEdit Blind Scanner do the job. E.g. if you know that it is a DVB-S2 transponder, and you know the frequency, polarisation and symbolrate, but not the modulation, FEC and pilot symbols, simply let TransEdit try all remaining combinations. In case of success TransEdit will add a new entry in the transponder list with the correct parameters.

 

The screenshot below shows how it works:

 

Polarisation = 1 -> try only vertical (0 would be horizontal, 0-1 both)

Modulations 1-2 -> try QPSK and 8PSK

Pilot Symbols 0-1 -> try Off and On

FEC Values 1-9 -> try all FEC values in the dropdown list except the first one (auto = 0)

DVB-S/DVB-S2 1 -> try only DVB-S2 (0 would be DVB-S, 0-1 both)

Roll Off Values 0 -> try only 0.35

 

Or even better, please supply a constantly up-to date supply of suitably formatted transponder lists. Obviously, from one day or week to the next, they change.

That's true. Keeping transponder lists and channel lists up-to-date is a time-consuming job nowadays. And you lazy sod want someone to do it for you? How much will you pay per month? :)

 

I'm sure scanning shouldn't be this difficult!

It would be much easier e.g. if you had a TechniSat SkyStar S2. It is able to detect modulation, FEC, pilot symbols and even DVB-S/S2 automatically. It doesn't care if you set a DVB-S2 transponder to DVB-S. However, it doesn't tell you what it has detected. It just works, but you never come to know the correct parameters.

 

Scanning with the Hauppauge Nova S2 is more cumbersome, but much better for providing or publishing correct transponder lists, because you will know if the parameters are not correct... it simply doesn't work.

Zwischenablage01.png

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leecovuk

Thanks Griga,

 

So should I just always use Blind Scan with DVBViewer or Transedit with the Hauppauge card I/we have?

ie no need to worry about finding or manually compiling up to date transponder lists?

However will I get overwhelmed with almost duplicate transponders?

 

For me it's not a case of being lazy asking for up to date transponder lists. It's a case of they seem to be difficult to find or achieve, possibly as you say due to the requirements of my card.

 

Thanks for the parameter help you posted. However could you please give an example?

For instance, if we take this line from Kingofsat's downloadable Astra 28.2 East list :

 

81=12460,H,29500,34,S2,QPSK

 

What does the '34' mean?

 

And how would 'S2,QPSK' translate into what is needed for my card with DVBViewer or Transedit?

 

Or, if we look at the same line offered by fastsatfinder for ProgDVB, it takes this form :

 

79=12460,H,29515,34,NBC_QPSK,p:off,r:x

 

Is one or the other more suitable for my usage? Or either would need adjusting?

 

Thanks,

Lee

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Griga
What does the '34' mean?

FEC 3/4

 

And how would 'S2,QPSK' translate into what is needed for my card with DVBViewer or Transedit?

Maybe DVB-S2 and QPSK? :rolleyes: You are asking for things that are very obvious resp. that have already been explained. Try to be a bit more proactive.

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leecovuk

FEC 3/4

 

 

Maybe DVB-S2 and QPSK? :rolleyes: You are asking for things that are very obvious resp. that have already been explained. Try to be a bit more proactive.

I think you're misunderstanding me. I assume English is not your first language.

I'm grateful for your help but it often doesn't address my queries, such as now, so there is little point pursuing it further.

 

Thanks anyway,

Lee

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leecovuk

Hello again,

 

I was somewhat harsh in my post above, and I would like to offer an apology to Griga who generally seems very helpful.

I just get frustrated when I try hard to be clear and pose specific points on forums (not just this one) which then seem to be ignored.

I assume this is partly due to a language barrier as well as different levels of knowledge and perspective.

I do tend to get 'blind spots' on certain issues, which is why I sometimes pose very specific points for answering. Whilst they may appear obvious to some, asking and getting replies 'on my terms' often helps me get over errors in my thinking.

 

Lee

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Griga

Don't be so afraid to try things. Get experimental. Learn by experience. Learning by doing, you know... the results will tell you if it's right or wrong. Read the TransEdit manual. Read it again. By and by you will understand more. If you get stuck somewhere, ask for help... but avoid asking questions that you can answer yourself with a little research or by simply trying if something works or not.

 

Let's have a look at this line:

 

79=12460,H,29515,34,NBC_QPSK,p:off,r:x

 

I don't know this format. TransEdit doesn't either. Frequency, Polarisation, Symbolrate and FEC are quite clear. Try to guess what the rest may be and to which TransEdit settings it may be related. NBC_QPSK... not so difficult. Modulation. Something from my knowledge: NBC means "Non Backwards Compatible", standing for the DVB-S2 QPSK type. And p:off? I think I know what it means, but now let's see how clever you are...

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entrecour

Lee,

 

You might find the info you are looking for on one of the sat transponder sites such as http://en.kingofsat.net.

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leecovuk

Hello entrecour and Griga again,

 

To entrecour:

Unfortunately, that site or others don't seem to offer Pilot Symbols settings, which has been pretty central to the troubles with scanning my card.

 

To Griga:

Despite having previously read / been warned of the problems using Auto FEC and/or NIT, I have been continuing doing so for probably months. It is only now in the last few days I have noticed I was missing many channels by doing that, and getting many wrong transponder parameters.

I was / am surprised that there isn't an 'automatic' way of scanning my card along the lines of NIT or Auto FEC, or indeed a suitable, accurate and up-to-date transponder list anywhere on the internet! Or so it seems so far.

 

The fastsatfinder list for ProgDVB is, for some reason, the only one on that site with Pilot Symbols and Roll-off values. Before reading your last post, I had indeed being trying to work out a way to translate those values into the DVBViewer lists. I don't understand the calculation method, but I managed to work out which 'number' matches various settings. ie by 'number' I mean the last number in a transponder line which defines Modulation, Pilot Symbols and Roll-off.

However, I was getting bogged down, partly because I found I couldn't trust all the values in the ProgDVB list.

 

So now, it appears this is the best method for scanning all active channels, although somewhat tedious:

Go to kingofsat (for example) and download their ini files for my satellites. Luckily I only have 4, otherwise this whole process would be very tedious.

Copy / paste their [DVB] sections into the DVBViewer lists, replacing what was there.

'Scan All' in Transedit on each satellite, setting Transedit to mark 'X' on apparently dead transponders, which I hadn't been doing before. NIT and Auto FEC off!

Add/Update the channel list as desired.

Then look in Transedit for the 'X' transponders and basically try various settings on them until they scan. Using Blind Scan if desired/necessary, which is a tool I had avoided using before.

Add/Update the channel list again as desired.

 

Of course even now, I am relying on the original list I downloaded being accurate in the sense that it is not missing any active transponders.

So, for completeness, I still have to finally do a visual check on lyngsat/kingofsat to check I have all active transponders.

 

Is this really the best / easiest way? Am I still missing something?

 

Thanks again,

Lee

UK

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Griga

Yes, I'm almost doing it in the same way with my Nova S2 (sometimes additionally a blind scan for finding out parameters)... particularly when it comes to providing up-to-date transponder lists and a default channellist for a release.

 

And then, few days later, I find that all Cyfra transponders on Hotbird changed the FEC, some CSAT DVB-S transponders on Astra 19° East became DVB-S2 and the other way round, CSAT channels moved to different transponders, just as yesterday some BBC channels on Astra 28° East, etc etc >_<

 

Seems the satellite providers are playing hide and seek with us...

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leecovuk

ok thanks Griga.

Good to hear I'm finally doing things better.

 

Yes, there are indeed regularly many changes.

 

Are you capable of building some kind of transponder data downloader that can always detect from somewhere full and correct transponder details? Including for our 'picky' cards?

I would almost certainly buy it if it was a pay item.

 

Or maybe somehow integrate such a thing into Transedit or DVBViewer?

 

It must surely be possible!

:)

 

Lee

Edited by leecovuk

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Griga
Are you capable of building some kind of transponder data downloader that can always detect from somewhere full and correct transponder details?

If I were it would already been done.

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leecovuk

If I were it would already been done.

I suppose so, either by you or somebody else.

Surely there is a way though.

It doesn't sound like a major project to me, but then I don't know the ins and outs of what it would involve.

 

Just thinking aloud ... could a 'normal' satellite receiver be used (one which is known to scan or blind scan accurately) to generate current transponder lists. Then export that to the computer and run some kind of script / conversion over it to make transponder ini files for various cards?

That process could be done, say, once a week.

 

Or indeed a computer tuner card could be the source of the original scan, if one is known to be fully accurate in (blind) scanning.

 

?

Edited by leecovuk

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entrecour

Hi Lee,

 

I am not sure if this is what you need but if you look down this page at the DVBS2 sections the roll-off is stated just below the DVBS2 logo.

 

http://www.linowsat.de/cgi-bin/lsat.cgi?0130-0-x-0-0-0

 

 

If that doesn't work you could try and contact Eutelsat via email or phone (they have a London office).

 

Best of Luck.

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Derrick

..if you look down this page at the DVBS2 sections the roll-off is stated just below the DVBS2 logo.

The roll-off factor of the spectrum shape can be obtained from the satellite delivery system descriptor (transedit -> analyze).

 

This is not the case for the use of pilot symbols to help demodulator synchronization. A dvb-s2 demodulator should determine pilot symbols automatically. Alas some demodulators don't. For these receivers a pilot_auto_search should be implemented in the driver. If it isn't, pilot has to be set manually (or determined by blind search by the application).

 

Normally we don't need to know whether pilot symbols are inserted, though it can be calculated. A fast means is a little java applet on this site http://www.saschateichmann.de/dvb-s.html Just fill in the parameters and compare the calculated data rate with the data rate measured by transedit's analyzer :)

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leecovuk

Hello again and thanks for these further replies.

 

Yes, it is the Pilot Symbols my card needs. However, now I am more familiar with the problem and scanning techniques, it is quite easy to try a few settings in Transedit. Usually, the Modulation type is correct and I only have to 'tick' Pilot Symbols.

 

I'm in the habit now of scanning as I described earlier, scrolling down the web browser at the same time to visually check the relevant kingofsat page to see if a 'troublesome' frequency is in fact only a feeds or unused frequency.

Of course, it would probably make more sense to use another site such as lyngsat for the visual check, for cross reference purposes.

 

Transedit seems to do a pretty good job at reading/translating/converting the kingofsat downloadable ini lists. My simple copy/paste technique of course kills all the Provider descriptions in the DVBViewer ini lists and they don't seem to be rescanned in, but I don't use or need them anyway.

 

I assume Hauppauge are aware of the 'Pilot Symbols' issue with my card. Is it in fact an issue / deficiency? I assume it is, as I think Griga/Derrick said some cards can scan them in.

 

Thanks,

Lee

Edited by leecovuk

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Griga
My simple copy/paste technique of course kills all the Provider descriptions in the DVBViewer ini lists and they don't seem to be rescanned in,

Settings -> Sanner1 -> Insert provider(s) as transponder description must be ticked.

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leecovuk

Settings -> Sanner1 -> Insert provider(s) as transponder description must be ticked.

Thanks Griga.

That is one of the many settings that hadn't yet entered my mentality!

 

Lee

Edited by leecovuk

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