Real 3D TV broadcast?

[Nick [D]vB]

Chris, you don't need to buy any new hardware to add 3Dvision support, I'm sure you have an old CRT monitor somewhere?

 

I can send you an emulator that will enable 3Dvision output on any Geforce 8 or later graphics card.

 

You can still see if 3D mode is working without the glasses, and I'm sure you'd have many beta testers who could check it.

 

I don't think you understand how popular proper 3D support would be, I have seen 50+ people asking for it.

 

There is a lot to watch now: http://en.kingofsat.net/3dtv.php

 

But I'm sure the authors of AVerTV & ProgDVB will be happy to keep taking your new customers looking for 3D support...

 

Edited July 11, 2011 by Nick [D]vB

[hackbart]

I also know that nvidia has a anaglyph mode for those like me who do not have the proper hardware. As i remember i wrote something concerning the nvidia 3d surface issue in the german subsection of this board. The problem is that we use textures and the whole 3d thing does not work in the way our osd is working. This is why i stopped the development for this at the moment.

 

Christian

[Nick [D]vB]

So maybe just disable or by-pass the OSD in 3D mode? I am sure someone with your skill could find a way around the problems, if you really wanted to...

[SimonP]

Nick, you are coming across as rather rude when Hackbart has made it clear that they are not ready to implement it yet.

 

I'm sure there is interest in a true 3D version but it's very small. Most of us will wait until there is a lot more content available and we can watch it without having to wear glasses. Current 3D technology is fun but not really ready for the mass-market so if I were in Hackbart's shoes I wouldn't waste too much time on it either.

 

I take it you've read the 3D anaglyph shader thread?

 

http://www.DVBViewer.tv/forum/topic/40858-3d-anaglyph-shader

[Nick [D]vB]

Nick, you are coming across as rather rude when Hackbart has made it clear that they are not ready to implement it yet.

How was I rude? I was simply stating facts, it is obvious Mr Hackbart has the skill to implement 3D when he wants to do it, we know he has over-come bigger problems than this in the past.

 

I take it you've read the 3D anaglyph shader thread?

 

http://www.DVBViewer...anaglyph-shader

Yes, Rica and I wrote the last two pages of it, and were ignored there to.

 

I'm sure there is interest in a true 3D version but it's very small. Most of us will wait until there is a lot more content available and we can watch it without having to wear glasses.

More content is coming, but you will be waiting a long time for good auto-stereoscopic displays, but then why not just wait for holographic projection, or even retinal implants?

 

Current 3D technology is fun but not really ready for the mass-market so if I were in Hackbart's shoes I wouldn't waste too much time on it either.

I hear this argument a lot, but it still makes no sense. When HD channels first started I did not hear anyone saying, “There’s no point, lets wait for 4K resolution”. No, DVBViewer was at the cutting-edge, supporting HD as soon as H.264 decoders were available, even with a tiny user-base, so why is 3D any different? Maybe it’s just fashionable to kick 3D at the moment…

 

Edited July 12, 2011 by Nick [D]vB

[hackbart]

Well i did not thought that it was rude, but you have to understand our situation. At the moment we really try to get open for other markets. I'm aware that middle east is no option (even if the users there would like to buy a license instead of pirating one), asia is progressing and north america requires the support for strange adapters to get the signal out of a stb into the pc.

It is also a fact that (i never indended to say this), we rely on the 15 Euro license fee.

From the 100 eMails i receive each day, there are about 30 with questions like:

Hi, the attachement contains the complete registration information from 2002. Looking forward to get the new credentials

or (in german)

Hallo,

 

wieso bekomme ich keine neue Lizenz und Zugangsdaten?

Ich habe DVBViewer am 9.12.2004 erworben und über den PayPal-Account eines Bekannten bezahlt. Die Bestätigung habe ich dieser Mail nochmals angehängt. Ich hatte damals schon gebeten meine Mailadresse zu ändern; Dies ist jedoch nicht geschehen.

 

One of my favourite is this kind of email (especially from one person, which i receive 3x daily since a half year):

 

PAY ME BACK YOU FUCKING INSANE THIEF WHAT THE HELL IS YOUR PROBLEM ??

 

YOU ARE BREAKING CONSUMER LAWS BY NOT PAYING BACK, THIS IS NOT A SERVICE THIS IS GOODS !!!

 

I HAVE CLEARLY STATED IT DOES NOT WORK AND YOU HAVE DISABLED MY DOWNLOAD, WHY DO YOU THINK YOU CAN KEEP THE MONEY ???

 

YOU ARE A THIEF AND A CRIMINAL !!!!

 

I have to say that i blocked the account after he threat to hurt me physically.

 

As you see there are a lot of users try to get the new credentials without considering to buy another license. These customers are not the one we need to survive. Since the mass of similar emails is overwhelming we decided for ourself that other projects which are under heavy development wont have the lifetime update ability.

In short term it means: Unless i do not have a inspiration how to deal with StretchRect and NVSTEREO_IMAGE_SIGNATURE in combination with our osd engine, i wont focus the work on this.

 

Christian

[LocalHolgi]

Wow, i never thought that you have to beat with this issue that much. Here in denmark even a box of beer costs mor than 115DKR (~15.50), or to say it more romantic a small bouqet of flowers for your wife might be also more expensive (but priceless). I hope this wont cool down your enthusiasm for further development of the software in general..

 

venlig hilsen

Holger

Edited July 12, 2011 by LocalHolgi

[SimonP]

vB' timestamp='1310435031' post='341031']

How was I rude? I was simply stating facts, it is obvious Mr Hackbart has the skill to implement 3D when he wants to do it, we know he has over-come bigger problems than this in the past.

I'm glad that Christian didn't take it that way but it is still rude to keep on about something when you have been given a definitive answer.

 

More content is coming, but you will be waiting a long time for good auto-stereoscopic displays, but then why not just wait for holographic projection, or even retinal implants?

You could say that about anything but in reality there is a point when it changes from being a gimmick to something truly useful. In the case of 3D, the fact that you have to wear glasses to view it keeps it in the gimmick category. Not only that but it has been suggested that it can cause eye strain so it really isn't mass-market ready yet.

 

I hear this argument a lot, but it still makes no sense. When HD channels first started I did not hear anyone saying, “There’s no point, lets wait for 4K resolution”. No, DVBViewer was at the cutting-edge, supporting HD as soon as H.264 decoders were available, even with a tiny user-base, so why is 3D any different? Maybe it’s just fashionable to kick 3D at the moment…

The difference is that it was not vastly more expensive, most people upgraded to sexy flat screen TVs at the same time, and it didn't require anything else to use it. Also (from a UK point of view) it was free to air whereas 3D is likely to remain subscription-only as the BBC have said that they do not propose to open a 3D channel in the forseeable future. Finally, 3D is effectively a downgrade on HD as it splits a 1920x1080 screen in 2 so is lower resolution.

 

I'm not against 3D or against the guys including it in DVBViewer, just agreeing that there are better things to spend time on right now, particularly as I believe the technology will change when displays that do not need glasses become available at reasonable prices.

 

Disappointed as you may be, you have to accept that true 3D will not be included in DVBv just yet and move on.

Edited July 12, 2011 by SimonP

[ricabullah]

I wouldn't expect advocates of something or someone here on this thread. This wasn't the aim of mine. I just asked a feature request here.

I didn't want to discuss with someone.

But i wouldn't want to hear some excusess either; and i'd expect just "yes" or "no" and i got the response.

Thanks all the guys who contributed to this thread and it's closed to me anymore.

Best to all.

[Nick [D]vB]

Sorry Rica, that was not my intention either. I was not trying to start a debate, the same old myths and misconceptions about 3D get boring after a while, sometimes you just have to let people work things out for themselves...

 

[erwin]

here is a shader for converting Sisvel 3D tile format to side-by-side

 

http://www.DVBViewer.tv/forum/topic/46321-3d-broadcast-format/page__view__findpost__p__341124

 

use it with ffdshow decoder. Using Cybelink decoder shows the backward compatibility of this transmission format.

[Nick [D]vB]

Nice work erwin, but the resolution is 1920x1088 !

 

Try these numbers:

 

Left=Crop(Video,0, 0, -640, -368)
R1=Crop(Video,1280,0,-0,-368)
R2=Crop(Video,0,720,-1280,-8)
R3=Crop(Video,640,720,-640,-8)
Right=StackHorizontal(R1, StackVertical(R2, R3))
StackHorizontal(Left,Right)
BicubicResize(1920, 1080)

 

.

Edited July 14, 2011 by Nick [D]vB

[Nick [D]vB]

Sorry for posting in English...

Edited July 14, 2011 by Nick [D]vB

[erwin]

vB' timestamp='1310610828' post='341187']

Sorry for posting in English...

Never mind!

 

vB' timestamp='1310610828' post='341187']

but the resolution is 1920x1088 !

I know. But I don't know where to correct this in my shader-script. And why. Is the script faulty or the source stream?

[Nick [D]vB]

The stream is ok, the shader script is faulty somehow,

 

the b]8[/b]'s should remove the gaps:

 

Left=Crop(Video,0, 0, -640, -368)

R1=Crop(Video,1280,0,-0,-368)

R2=Crop(Video,0,720,-1280,-8)

R3=Crop(Video,640,720,-640,-8)

Edited July 14, 2011 by Nick [D]vB

[Nick [D]vB]

ps- Maybe you can intergrate your script with the Anaglyph shaders?

[Nick [D]vB]

pps- I just had an idea, maybe we could use a shader to enable 3D output for "DLPlink" 3DTVs & projectors! Maybe we could use a shader to convert side-by-side video to frame-sequential? (or maybe even "Checkerboard" format) It would work like quad-buffer / page-flipping / AFR mode but emulated in the shader instead, just cut SBS in half, stretch each side to 1920, then display alternate frames. But for this to work each frame would have to stay in sync with the display refresh-rate, do you know if that is possible? This could even work for nvidia 3Dvision because the new drivers have an option to keep the display in "3D mode" so the glasses should stay in sync, and DLPlink glasses will do this automatically. It is just an idea, but if it can be done I'm sure many people would be happy to finally watch live 3D in DVBViewer!

 

Edited July 14, 2011 by Nick [D]vB

[Nick [D]vB]

Great work erwin, that gives me an idea, maybe we could use a shader to enable 3D output for "DLPlink" 3DTVs & projectors! Maybe we could use a shader to convert side-by-side video to frame-sequential? (or maybe even "Checkerboard" format) It would work like quad-buffer / page-flipping / AFR mode but emulated in the shader instead, just cut SBS in half, stretch each side to 1920, then display alternate frames.

 

But for this to work each frame would have to stay in sync with the display refresh-rate, do you know if that is possible? This could even work for nvidia 3Dvision because the new drivers have an option to keep the display in "3D mode" so the glasses should stay in sync, and DLPlink glasses will do this automatically. It might be a "dirty hack", but it is better than nothing. I am sure many people would be happy to finally watch live 3D in DVBViewer!

 

Edited July 14, 2011 by Nick [D]vB

[erwin]

vB' timestamp='1310648500' post='341215']

The stream is ok, the shader script is faulty somehow,

No, Nick [D]vB.

 

Using this sample http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1512362&postcount=27 i get alignment errors with your proposed 8 pixel offset or without it. The stream is flaged as 1920x1088 - the Sisvel spec is 1920x1080. In the case the decoded picture is also 1920x1088 you can correct it your way. But the decoded picture is 1906x1074 (R1: 626x720; R2: 640x354; R3: 640x354). This means there are missing pixels, so you can't put together R correctly. See this shot:

 

 

In L you can read "SIEGEL'S", in R3 there isn't an "I" it beginns with a cutten "E". In R1 there isn't an "I" too. It is cutten by the missing 14 pixels in 1920 (1906). The puzzel never yields an "I".

 

PS: i've replaced the shader script by a new version. It expects a well formed Sisvel layout.

 

vB' timestamp='1310648500' post='341215']

ps- Maybe you can intergrate your script with the Anaglyph shaders?

This should be possible. But tell me a broadcaster using Sisvel. The Sisvel demo channel isn't currently on air, is it?.

 

vB' timestamp='1310648500' post='341215']

pps-

I must tell you, that i'm a newbie in HLSL shader programming. I can't answer your questions.

Edited July 15, 2011 by erwin

[erwin]

vB' timestamp='1310650339' post='341218']

ps- Maybe you can intergrate your script with the Anaglyph shaders?

Here we go:

 

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="iso-8859-1"?>
  <Shader>
    <Profile>ps_2_0</Profile>
    <Description>Sisvel 3D Tile format to Anaglyph Dubois</Description>
    <Code>sampler s0 : register(s0);


// 11.07.2011
// by P. Erward aka erwin



float4 sisval( float2 tex : TEXCOORD0 ) : COLOR
{  
  float f43 = 4.0f / 3.0f;
  float f23 = 2.0f / 3.0f;
  float f34 = 3.0f / 4.0f;
  float f13 = 1.0f / 3.0f;

  if ( tex.x < 0.5 ) {
    tex.x = tex.x * f43;
    tex.y = tex.y * f23;
  }
  else if ( tex.x < 0.75 ) {
    tex.x = ( tex.x - 0.5f )* f43 + f23;
    tex.y = tex.y * f23;
  }
  else if ( tex.y < 0.5 ) {
    tex.x = ( tex.x - f34 ) * f43;
    tex.y = tex.y * f23 + f23;
  }
  else {
    tex.x = ( tex.x - f34 ) * f43 + f13;
    tex.y = ( tex.y - 0.5f ) * f23 + f23;
  }

  return tex2D( s0, tex );
}

// this is from Anaglyph_Dubois.xml
// copyright unknown (DVBViewer ?)
float4 main( float2 tex : TEXCOORD0 ) : COLOR
{
   tex.x = tex.x / 2;

   //float4 l = tex2D(s0, tex);
   float4 l = sisval( tex );  // changed by erwin

   tex.x = tex.x + 0.5;

   //float4 r = tex2D(s0, tex);
   float4 r = sisval( tex );  // changed by erwin

   float red = 0.456100*l.r + 0.500484*l.g + 0.176381*l.b
             - 0.0434706*r.r - 0.0879388*r.g - 0.00155529*r.b;

   float green = -0.0400822*l.r - 0.0378246*l.g
                 -0.0157589*l.b + 0.378476*r.r
                 +0.73364*r.g - 0.0184503*r.b;

   float blue = -0.0152161*l.r - 0.0205971*l.g
                -0.00546856*l.b - 0.0721527*r.r
                -0.112961*r.g + 1.2264*r.b;

   return float4(red, green, blue, 1);
}</Code>
  </Shader>

[/codeBOX]

 

Sisvel2Anaglyph.xml

[Nick [D]vB]

i get alignment errors with your proposed 8 pixel offset or without it. The stream is flaged as 1920x1088 - the Sisvel spec is 1920x1080. In the case the decoded picture is also 1920x1088 you can correct it your way. But the decoded picture is 1906x1074...

The problem is not the sample, or your corrected shader! The problem is really FFdshow! DVBViewer reports the correct resolution (but I think always crops to 1080 anyway?) but FFdshow is cropping the stream to some random resolution and, as you said, parts are missing so you can not re-build it correctly. FFmpegSource has the same problem, DirectshowSource crops to 720p! So far the only things that work properly are DGsource and the new sView alpha (which uses a hack to force the correct resolution).

 

This should be possible. But tell me a broadcaster using Sisvel. The Sisvel demo channel isn't currently on air, is it?

No, but surely it is best to do it now whilst you are thinking of it. Thanks for making the anaglyph version, I'm sure it will be useful to someone one day. The demo channel has gone off many times before, it should be back in a few days. There are also some DVB-T channels using Sisvel 3D now, like QuartaRete TV in Italy. Hopefully more channels will come...

 

I must tell you, that i'm a newbie in HLSL shader programming. I can't answer your questions.

I realise you are new to this, but I think my idea is actually simpler than your Sisvel shader! Just crop -> resize -> display LRLRLR. As I said the issue is keeping sync with the refresh rate, getting both 25fps frames to sync with 60Hz per eye, then keeping sync with 120Hz refresh rate. There is a "define clock" funtion in the de-interlace shader, maybe we can use that somehow? I am just guessing though, I am new to this to! Edited July 15, 2011 by Nick [D]vB

[erwin]

vB' timestamp='1310737659' post='341311']

The problem is not the sample, or your corrected shader! The problem is really FFdshow! DVBViewer reports the correct resolution (but I think always crops to 1080 anyway?) but FFdshow is cropping the stream to some random resolution and, as you said, parts are missing so you can not re-build it correctly. FFmpegSource has the same problem, DirectshowSource crops to 720p! So far the only things that work properly are DGsource and the new sView alpha (which uses a hack to force the correct resolution).

Wow! Yet another dimension of problem solving. Thank you for this really good information.

 

vB' timestamp='1310737659' post='341311']

DirectshowSource crops to 720p!

the required feature for backward compatibility. So DirectshowSource meets the H264 specs. ;-)

 

@moderator

Verschieben in den english thread?

[Tjod]

moved from German topic 3D Broadcast Format

[Nick [D]vB]

Wow! Yet another dimension of problem solving. Thank you for this really good information.

lol... Who said the Germans can't do sarcasm? Of cource I meant "random" as in incorrect, maybe I should have said something like "arbitrarily erroneous" ? But I was posting in a german speaking thread, sorry about that...

 

required feature for backward compatibility. So DirectshowSource meets the H264 specs. ;-)

Yes, like I said on the first page of the Doom9 thread, did you actually read it? It might have saved you some time...

 

Anyway, some good news, we can now watch live TV in the new version of the sView 3D media player. It can open the http unicast stream from DVBViewer's network streaming plugin, it supports 3Dvision and just about every other 3D output mode, so no need to worry about 3D shaders or anything else, just minimise DVBViewer and forget all about it...

 

Edited July 15, 2011 by Nick [D]vB

[erwin]

vB' timestamp='1310751900' post='341334']

But I was posting in a german speaking thread, sorry about that...

Na sag doch alles auf deutsch!

Was bist du denn für ein Affe der sich in einen deutschsprachlichen Diskurs einmischt und mit seinen fremdsprachlichen Qualitäten rumprotzt.

[Nick [D]vB]

lol, sadly I can't. English, French and Dutch are my only languages,

 

which is sad because I actually lived in Germany until I was 7 years old!

 

[Crisidelm]

vB' timestamp='1310751900' post='341334']

Anyway, some good news, we can now watch live TV in the new version of the sView 3D media player. It can open the http unicast stream from DVBViewer's network streaming plugin, it supports 3Dvision and just about every other 3D output mode, so no need to worry about 3D shaders or anything else, just minimise DVBViewer and forget all about it...

 

 

Is it version 11.03? If so, how do you open the unicast streaming from DVBViewer? I can't find it in Media>...

Thanks

[Nick [D]vB]

This feature was only added a few days ago so you will need the latest alpha build from here:

 

http://www.sview.ru/ru/download/sViewLastAlpha

 

 

There is no open url menu yet so to open the stream just make a copy of the sView shortcut and add this to the target:

 

"C:\Program Files\sView 2011\sView.exe" --in=video - http://127.0.0.1:2345

 

Set the aspect ratio to 16:9 and the source format to Parallel Pair, and I would also enable de-interlacing.

 

I tried something similar using MainConcept demux filters in Stereoscopic Player but the video was really jerky.

 

sView works perfectly so a big thanks to Kirill for adding this feature, finally we can watch live 3D!

 

Edited July 17, 2011 by Nick [D]vB

[Crisidelm]

Thanks, it seems to be working now: only thing is, when I switch to full screen, it doesn't actually, screen turns black except for a little rectangle where the actual broadcast keeps showing. But for the rest it seems to be working

Edited July 18, 2011 by Crisidelm

[erwin]

vB' timestamp='1310737659' post='341311']

The problem is not the sample, or your corrected shader! The problem is really FFdshow!

The problem is rather the custom renderer. In MPC-HC i get with custom renderer a 1906x1074 format, with VMR-9 (renderless) i get the correct 1920x1080 and the shader works fine. Connection to DVBV rec service is also possible. So you have a powerfull alternative to Alpha-sView for viewing live 3D.

[Nick [D]vB]

Thanks, it seems to be working now: only thing is, when I switch to full screen, it doesn't actually, screen turns black except for a little rectangle where the actual broadcast keeps showing. But for the rest it seems to be working

Full screen works ok for me, but the lastest nvidia drivers are buggy as hell, the 3D in a window mode causes problems for lots of applications, try setting 3D to fullscreen only in the 3Dvision control panel, also run the test and select the native resolution of your display then tick the box to use that mode for all applications.

 

The problem is rather the custom renderer. In MPC-HC i get with custom renderer a 1906x1074 format, with VMR-9 (renderless) i get the correct 1920x1080 and the shader works fine. Connection to DVBV rec service is also possible. So you have a powerfull alternative to Alpha-sView for viewing live 3D.

When I tested in GraphStudio all the renderers had the same problem, including normal VMR9, but I'm glad it is working ok in MPC-HC. Sadly MPC-HC does not support 3Dvision or any of the other 3D output modes that sView has, so it is not much use unless you have an HDMI 1.4 display. If only someone could write a simple page-flipping shader then they could add full 3D support to DVBViewer and MPC-HC in one go... Edited July 18, 2011 by Nick [D]vB

[madsilence]

Hi.

I see discussion is so hot ...

I've just purchased 3D Vision glasses so, now I'm another potential beta-tester of Sat3D on PC. I only want to confirm, that quantity of 3D Vision glasse's owners is increasing every day and we are waiting for real 3D support.

Christian, thanks for exellent program.

[madsilence]

I'm testing now a new 3D monitor LG D2342P with polarization technology (half vertical resolution, 540 lines per eye). With this monitor there are no need to implement nothing, - just push a full screen side-by-side image over HDMI and enjoy th 3D....I'm talking about DVBViewer in particular, that have no interlaced output feature and this solution is as well for any hardware or software capable to push side-by-side over HDMI. From the other hand PowerDVD 11 and Stereoscopic player has interlaced output feature so the can both over DVI as well as HDMI.

The question is : is it difficult to implement interlaced output feature in DVBViewer?

Because via HDMI is possible but only a fullscreeen mode and with distorted desktop.

Any simple shader maybe???

Edited August 10, 2011 by madsilence

[Nick [D]vB]

It should be pretty simple to write an interlaced output shader, but that doesn't mean it will ever happen.

 

sView has several interlaced output modes so you should be able to watch live TV from DVBViewer using streaming.

[madsilence]

Nick [D]vB

Do you mean a emission to LAN (or to localhost 127.0.0.1) via DVBViewer streaming plugin (one program)? and then catch the stream with another program like Stereoscopic Player or VLC or another one?

If thus, its unacceptable because a 4-core CPU is a minimun requirement. With two cores@2.80 Stereoscopic Player decodes side-by-side 1920x1080 stream with CPU load aprox 60-80%. DVBViewer streaming "eats" around 20-25% of CPU load when video and audio is disabled (streaming only). So, CPU load is always around 100% and picture freezes for a long while.

I think that shader for interlaced should be a simple one, not much more complicated than anaglyph....

[Nick [D]vB]

Nick [D]vB

Do you mean a emission to LAN (or to localhost 127.0.0.1) via DVBViewer streaming plugin (one program)? and then catch the stream with another program like Stereoscopic Player or VLC or another one?

If thus, its unacceptable because a 4-core CPU is a minimun requirement. With two cores@2.80 Stereoscopic Player decodes side-by-side 1920x1080 stream with CPU load aprox 60-80%. DVBViewer streaming "eats" around 20-25% of CPU load when video and audio is disabled (streaming only). So, CPU load is always around 100% and picture freezes for a long while.

I think that shader for interlaced should be a simple one, not much more complicated than anaglyph....

Using Stereoscopic player the video was jerky even on my 4GHz quad-core, try sView instead:

 

vB' timestamp='1310919046' post='341503']

This feature was only added a few days ago so you will need the latest alpha build from here:

 

http://www.sview.ru/ru/download/sViewLastAlpha

 

 

There is no open url menu yet so to open the stream just make a copy of the sView shortcut and add this to the target:

 

"C:\Program Files\sView 2011\sView.exe" --in=video - http://127.0.0.1:2345

 

Set the aspect ratio to 16:9 and the source format to Parallel Pair, and I would also enable de-interlacing.

 

I tried something similar using MainConcept demux filters in Stereoscopic Player but the video was really jerky.

 

sView works perfectly so a big thanks to Kirill for adding this feature, finally we can watch live 3D!

 

Edited August 10, 2011 by Nick [D]vB