Too many need for "rebuild graph"

[trifon33]

Hello,

 

I use 2 HTPC with the same nasty behavior:

 

There is need for "rebuild graph".

 

Typicaly, after chanel change, the picture is a little bit jerky with few subtle freezes.

To solve the issue, "rebuild graph" is needed.

it look like the DVBViewer filter show some difficulty to get sync with the DVB stream...Especialy as long as terrestric chanels are involved...

 

The DVBViewer filter property reports one certain amont of discontinuities when the issue is present.. zero after rebuild graph...

Transedit MMC reports there is no problem with no bit errors....

 

The issue is present with all SD/HD codecs I could test. Nothing when paying back recorded file, only live is concerned...

 

Is it possible to fix this issue with some peculiar settings???

 

Or may be some issue with the ATI UVD3 hardware support? Series 6 ATI are installed on both HTPC...

Poor compatibility with BDA DVB-T USB drivers????

 

I have sent the file already in this topic wich is solved now:

http://www.DVBViewer.tv/forum/topic/47145-get-mad-with-anysee-e7-s2-w-w7-32-sp1/

 

Thanks for your help...

Edited November 12, 2011 by trifon33

[bogdan1980]

I have this problem on dvbc as well, but in mediacenter, progdvb all is good.

Dvbsource is too sensible

Edited November 13, 2011 by bogdan1980

[Tjod]

Try running DVBViewer in Debug Mode: start menu > programs > DVBViewer > Support > DVBViewer (Debug Mode).

[Gioxy]

Please try to experiment with these settings:

- in DVBViewer Filter, set "Max. Queued Audio (ms): TV/Radio" value from 1600 to 3000, "File" from 800 to 2000

- go to "Settings / Options / DirectX / DVBViewer Filter" and check both "TV/Radio Pre-Format Detection"

 

The latter setting instruct DVBViewer to rebuild the graph at every channel change; in that way, at every channel change DVBViewer filter detect the stream formats and tell them to the follower A/V decoders; otherwise DirectX graph remain connected and unchanged and A/V decoders have to manage itself all stream format change (and not all codecs are enough smart in this task...); the penalty in checking the PreFormat detection is some less speed in channel changes, but sometime is a worth solution...

 

Read more (and better) about Pre-Dormat Detection in the Wiki...

 

[trifon33]

Hello,

 

Thanks a lot for all those suggestions...

 

I'll keep you informed about the result...

 

Another question from the Wiki:

 

"Vsync by Areo"

Is it worth to check that???

[bogdan1980]

Gioxy , i will try your settings too.

but at Latency(ms) what value to put?

 

 

mine default is:

 

latency ms : 350

max queued : 700

File: 0

 

i put

 

latency ms: 350

max: 3000

file: 2000

 

will see....with debug mode still the same.

[Etienne]

Works fine here with the setting from Gioxy

[bogdan1980]

with these settings iphone stream has problems, after some time picture freeze on iphone.

will test more.

Etienne, if you have 1-2 weeks without freeze then your good to go, not 1 day:P

Edited November 13, 2011 by bogdan1980

[Gioxy]

@bogdan1980:

at Latency(ms) what value to put?

This value is intended to adjust "lipsync", ie the synchronization between what you see and what you hear; normally the standard value work fine...

 

[Derrick]

This value is intended to adjust "lipsync"

not true

http://www.DVBViewer.com/griga/DVBSource%20E/DVBSource.html

[Tjod]

If you have a bad setup. Where you decode video on the PC and audio on a different device (SPIF-passthrough).

Latency can have a influence on lipsync. But if you have bad luck. You need different settings for every channel.

[bogdan1980]

with 3000 and 2000 ( in dvbsource) same situation, discontinuties, graph too slow, etc.

I call tech from my ISP, test my cable, and put me on an single channel( without neighbourns) same situation.

I have R6 tv cable.

What is curios is i could play all day with mediacenter or progdvb, and signal is perfect, live-tv is perfect.

I buyed an progdvb licence to use, it's imposible to use DVBViewer even for live-tv, not to say about scheduler recs:))

But still i love DVBViewer, is like is build for me, i like ALL OF IT, it remaind me of ChrisTV.

ProgDVB has an stability mode, that " restart" the stream if something is wrong, or restart whole program.

maybe will need this too into DVBViewer.

Edited November 14, 2011 by bogdan1980

[Gioxy]

@Derrick an @all:

latency -> lipsync -> not true

Sorry, my fault... I have always misunderstanded "how many milliseconds the DVBViewer Filter shifts the presentation time stamps of the data packets" as referred to Video data packets in respect of Audio ones...

 

Thanks Derrick and sorry again...

 

[bogdan1980]

well, after 1 day of using progdvb client stream( same as DVBViewer client) i'm back at DVBViewer:((

ProgDVB crash a lot, because it's an buggy software.

I delete all my plugins from DVBViewer to test, see how will be after few weeks. Till then no more plugs.

I remain at 350ms, 3000ms and 2000ms in dvbsource maybe will work.( today zero discontinuties on FREE channels)

[trifon33]

Hello,

 

Checking TV/radio format detection has very much increased the graph stability after chanel change though not 100% perfect.

Terrestric HD chanels are very demanding in term of signal quality....If there is ramdom bit rate error, the graph has difficulties to follow and rebuild graph is sometimes necessary.

Presently, the signal must be perfect; this is usual from the SAT but more difficult to achieve on Terrestric, especialy if the circuit used by the DVB-T device is not very good in HD.

 

Changing the settings in the DVBViewer filter did not make any inprovment for me...

 

This issue does not occur with Media Center 7 or the the DVB-T device bundled software.

 

I guess there is likely room for improvment with the DVBViewer filter....

Edited November 17, 2011 by trifon33

[bogdan1980]

1.Checking TV/radio format detection has very much increased the graph stability after chanel change though not 100% perfect.

 

Confirm this. Still have problems but somehow smaller.

 

Usually i use dvb-c, but on DVB-t with DVBViewer, i see massive discontinuties( even with 100% signal), like thousands... i need an active antena.

Also on dvb-t DVBViewer crashed a lot, and sometimes all my OS freeze( win7), alt+ctrl+del not working, and i need to do an hard reset.

 

 

 

2.I guess there is likely room for improvment with the DVBViewer filter.

 

YES.

Also, in v4.9,for example, today image freeze on an HD channel for 1 second, and i see 300 discontinuties, then in the next few hours i see 320 discontinuties.

I never seen 300 errors within an second when image freeze, except in v4.9.

In DVBViewer v4.3-4.6 when image freeze for an second i seen maybe 3-4 discontinuties, but not 300.

 

3. This issue does not occur with Media Center 7

 

I notice that also, on dvb-t and dvb-c in prog dvb, dvbdream, mediacenter all was ok. but i like DVBViewer, stream with DVBViewer is future proof:D

 

Also, i cant stay away from DVBViewer, because:

 

dvbdream, crashes a lot, plus no subtitles on some of my channels, no stream client.

progdvb, crashes a lot, inutilizable.

mediacenter, i do not like it at all.

Edited November 18, 2011 by bogdan1980

[Gioxy]

on dvb-t DVBViewer crashed a lot, and sometimes all my OS freeze( win7)

Most likely a DVB-T card driver related issue: even on a 11 years old PIII 966MHz Intel 815 integrated video 384Mb RAM XPSp3 PC I use everyday to watch TV (until 3-4 years ago from sat as DVBViewer RS-Client, then with a Terratec USB DVB-T local stick), I *never* had such a bad issue... and all the short freeze sometime it show are from channel with snatchy poor quality (ie discontinuity - that show also as macroblock on my real TVs - every some min...), otherwise the vison (of SD channels, of course!) it's simply perfect...

 

[trifon33]

Hello,

 

Yesterday evening, I payed back one TS SD w. AC3 file previously recorded by DVBViewer. The file(SAT) is perfect with no discontinuities.

 

I could observe at the very begining the file was a bit jerky on fast action, as the desinterlacing did not work. After rebuild graph everything was OK up to the end of the movie.

 

Video codec: Cyberlink from Avermedia software + EVR Custom...

 

By the way, Arcsoft T M T 5 disables Aero when in action...May be there is sometihng to dig in that direction....

Edited November 19, 2011 by trifon33

[bogdan1980]

i check some bda software, the name is smartdvb, light as DVBViewer, in it i have image freeze as well, and i notice that when it appear, in sound properties( default directsound_)at advanced tab, i see discontinuties, breaks and silence( full of errors).

Then i check DVBViewer and notice the same thing with sound. I tried onboard realtek and also an creative xfi pcie audio, same errors on both.

In Mediacenter i could watch HD premium channels all day, and image and sound keeps coming, no errors no nothing.

Also i notice that with Cyberlink v8-v9 video codecs jitter are quite large, 5-10, and for example with microsoft codec i see only 1 jitter.

cyberlink v11 is good

 

But, i can assure you that i talk with an friend that use same empia tuner, no errors no nothing in DVBViewer, it could rec all day or live-tv, and image is ok.

I think i will buy another tuner, and sell all my empias, but i do not know what dvbc tuner to buy, i want to have perfect image on DVBViewer.

Edited December 15, 2011 by bogdan1980

[trifon33]

i check some bda software, the name is smartdvb, light as DVBViewer, in it i have image freeze as well, and i notice that when it appear, in sound properties( default directsound_)at advanced tab, i see discontinuties, breaks and silence( full of errors).

Then i check DVBViewer and notice the same thing with sound. I tried onboard realtek and also an creative xfi pcie audio, same errors on both.

In Mediacenter i could watch HD premium channels all day, and image and sound keeps coming, no errors no nothing.

Also i notice that with Cyberlink video codecs jitter are quite large, 5-10, and for example with microsoft codec i see only 1 jitter.

 

But, i can assure you that i talk with an friend that use same empia tuner, no errors no nothing in DVBViewer, it could rec all day or live-tv, and image is ok.

I think i will buy another tuner, and sell all my empias, but i do not know what dvbc tuner to buy, i want to have perfect image on DVBViewer.

 

If TranseditMMC report say no bit error rate...the tuner is OK...

 

HD terrestrial chanels are rather touchy to deal with. In France, especialy since the change from 1440x1080i to 1920X1080i with the same average bitrate(24Mbts/3 HD Chanels).

 

The MCE 7 filter is able to recover after video decoding accident = brief macroblocks with no more issue.

 

 

Obvioulsy, that not the case for the DVBViewer filter that crashes for good until rebuild graph...

 

Please test the Arcsoft Total media 5 video HD filter(trial version is OK...)

I'd like to get some feedback about it...

Edited December 15, 2011 by trifon33

[bogdan1980]

arcsoft is not good at all, it crashes DVBViewer, dvbdream, progdvb and smartdvb.

I myself notice that when something happen in MCE macroblocks appears for few seconds then all is good.

 

EDIT: just now cable guy leave from my house.

They test my cable, it say i have 60% signal on my cable that enter in tv tuner stick.

Then they put my cable in another slot and it says: now you have 67% signal, that's all we can do.

Also they say that at 60% signal their dvbc receivers have problems, their receivers need at least 63% signal.

I ask them to raise my signal above 67%, they say they could not, because then all my neighbours will have problems with their signal.

 

Question: Dont you think 67% signal is to low?

Edited December 15, 2011 by bogdan1980

[trifon33]

Question: Dont you think 67% signal is to low?

 

Honestly I don't know....The signal level/quality reported by the tuner depends very much of the tuner itself. For instance, the Anysee(SAT) says 89% is very bad while another tuner reports 45%.

 

I suspect some relationship regarding the HD graph stability issue with ATI graphics. Guys using NVIDIA GC say there is no problem with the Arcsoft codec...

Edited December 16, 2011 by trifon33

[bogdan1980]

Trifon, what i mean with signal 67% is with cable guy tool, not with DVBViewer, in DVBViewer i always have 100%.( reported false by drivers)

They say that with an splitter, signal is lower, it dropped down with 3-5db because of an splitter.

And also from the splitter to tv-tuner, they tell me to use am smaller cable, if i use an cable with 20meters i lost 2-4db.( i have maximum 10 meters here).

 

A friend of mine use empia tuner+ DVBViewer, and over a period of six month he scheduler recording, live-tv all day, not errors, no image freeze, no nothing, that why i know something is happening in my apartment.

i have nvidia on server, and 1 client, and an ati on second client.

on client with ati 2600hd, i use catalyst 9.8, any newer then that i get macroblocks( i read about this 9.8 catalyst on dvblink forum, they all use it).

Edited December 16, 2011 by bogdan1980

[Gioxy]

Hi bogdan,

I don't know if cable receivers are affected at all, but SAT receivers suffers DECT phone near them/along the cable, or maybe you've some other RF sorce that's damaging your cable signal... signal can be also degraded/damaged by poor quality cables, connectors and splitters; also splitters with unused open port can greatly degrade signal.

If you can, try to connect only one receiver with a unique quality cable stright to the applet and check if there are less discontinuity...

 

[trifon33]

Trifon, what i mean with signal 67% is with cable guy tool, not with DVBViewer, in DVBViewer i always have 100%.( reported false by drivers)

They say that with an splitter, signal is lower, it dropped down with 3-5db because of an splitter.

And also from the splitter to tv-tuner, they tell me to use am smaller cable, if i use an cable with 20meters i lost 2-4db.( i have maximum 10 meters here).

 

A friend of mine use empia tuner+ DVBViewer, and over a period of six month he scheduler recording, live-tv all day, not errors, no image freeze, no nothing, that why i know something is happening in my apartment.

i have nvidia on server, and 1 client, and an ati on second client.

on client with ati 2600hd, i use catalyst 9.8, any newer then that i get macroblocks( i read about this 9.8 catalyst on dvblink forum, they all use it).

 

Regarding signal quality/level, the best thing to do is to run TranseditMMC to find out if theere are bit error rates. I don't know what GC they use in DVBLink forum....For me the 9.8 is 100% out of date...

 

The ATI driver compatibilty is depending upon the graphic card type. The HD 2600 is rather old especialy for runing W7.

 

I own 2 PC with HD 6450 and HD 6670...No problem with the last CCC 11.12. It seems ther is an update about MCE7 compatibilty. I'll test the Microsoft DTV decoder.

 

Older Catalyst are not good for me with issue in Cyberlink HD codec hardware support; solved from 10.8...

Edited December 16, 2011 by trifon33

[bogdan1980]

i buyed this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/4-Way-TV-Broadband-Signal-Amplifier-AMP-Video-Booster-CATV-Cable-US-Plug-220V-/120786502684#shId

 

i will test this in 2 weeks i guess.

[Derrick]

..that will probably keep this thread alive for a long time

[trifon33]

The SD being OK now with suggested spécial settings, I have found one issue left:

 

When chanel change from SD(SAT or Terrestrial) to DVB-T HD chanel it look like the graph has no time to correctly start: from time to time jerky picture.

 

I have solved it by checking "stop stream while tuning". The chanel change is a bit slower but nothing disastrous.

 

W7 64 SP1; ATI HD6670; (HD)Cyberlink PWDVD 11; (SD) Arsoft; Audio Lavfilter.

DVB-T: Twintech UT30

DVB-S: Anysee E7 S2

Edited December 26, 2011 by trifon33

[p0ney]

Hi,

 

I used to have some discontinuities on my DVB-C reception, i updated DVB Source with the last beta 3.6 and try the settings above (2000ms for max queue audio/video, DVB Clock activated and Pre-Format detection).

 

At the moment it looks like to work !

[bogdan1980]

Fix for me: i stopped mce services, because their epg scan over and over broke livetv in DVBViewer.

 

I tried any option i could, new video drivers, tuner drivers, codecs, differents settings in DVBViewer, nothing work, except stopping these 2 services:

click start-services.msc

stop ehRecvr.exe

ehsched.exe

 

put it on DISABLED.

 

Now, live-tv image do not freeze at all, i get some small discontinuties if i do a lot of tasks on my PC, alt+tab from games, Utorent open , 20 tabs in Opera, etc, recording in DVBViewer, PIP activated, expecially if i have enabled VSYNC BY AERO in DirectX-DVBViewer.

But image is not freezing.

If i disabled VSYNC BY AERO, i do not have 1 single discontinuties.

 

I think i find out why stopping those 2 services fixed image freeze in DVBViewer.

In Mediacenter i set up my postal code-Romania,######, but in Romania we dont have epg guide, only from eit-scan.

If i havent any guide info at my postal code, Mediacenter tries 100 times/day to download the guide...i see in eventlog an mce errors: epg could not be downloaded... or something thousands of times.

This broke live-tv in DVBViewer, because ehsched.exe tries downloading the guide, and "grab" my tuner when im using DVBViewer.

When this happen, image freeze in DVBViewer

 

As an conclusion for anyone who suffer from discontinuties in DVBViewer or any other bda app, stopp those 2 services and let them disabled for 1-2 weeks to test.

I am aproaching at 1 month with no image freeze on sd, hd, cripted or not in DVBViewer. And now i ONLY use DVBViewer.

Image freeze on live-tv dissapear as well in other bda app, like SmartDVB.

Edited January 25, 2012 by bogdan1980