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oldgringo

Unicable II support

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oldgringo

Would it be possible to implement unicable II support for unicable II/JESS lnbs like Dur-Line UK 124 or Inverto SP-IDLU-32UL40-UNMOO-OPP?

Thanks.

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oldgringo

To specify the area for the enhancement - there is only a support for one unicable lnb but in case of 2-4 lnbs on the same cable the choice of lnbs A,B,C,D is missing. Also it is not possible to insert upper unicable slot from 8. Thanks.

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userip

Hi,

 

I like too improved support for Unicable II: More slots (up to 32), LNB addressing (B, C, D,... in the same cable), Static mode (static frequencies), etc.

 

Please!

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mani tehrani

hi

me too, i have inverto unicable lnb with 32 user band and i cant use all 32 user band with DVBViewer

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mani tehrani
20 minutes ago, mani tehrani said:

hi

me too, i have inverto unicable lnb with 32 user band and i cant use all 32 user band with DVBViewer

also my lnb has one LOF only! how can i select my lnb type?

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userip

Hi,

 

No news about it?

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mani tehrani

im waiting for unicable II support do you have any plan to add this feature?

  • Thanks 1

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userip

Me too!

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oldgringo
Posted (edited)

I saw the first attempt for unicable II support but there is a lot of work here, I guess (even for basic unicable system).

 

1. The UC slot still shows 1..8 in description (cosmetics) but after change of number in slot there is always value 32 after re-open.

2. It is possible to use more unicable LNBs for a single tuner (it is the purpose) so there should be an option to add another unicable LNB for positions A, B, C and D (for both unicable and Jess) for every tuner.

3. It should be also separate LNB's PIN for each position (for lnbs on positions A, B, C and D).

4. Transedit has still got old options only. It needs to update not only the hardware section but also the options in the transponder list (like unicable A, B, C and D for both unicable and Jess).

 

Please, don't take it like a complaint. It is only short summary of missing parts for unicable support. I really appreciate your work guys, thank you.

Edited by oldgringo

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Griga

1. Please provide the steps to reproduce the issue.

2. LNB selection is done in the usual way by setting up DiSEqC in the channel editor. DVBViewer translates DiSEqC 1.0 and 1.1 to the corresponding Unicable commands.

3. PINs are slot-related, not LNB related.

4. Not yet released.

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oldgringo

1. This is the setting I want to save:

Before_Save.jpg.90eb71f4ac4302425c59354db3de94fe.jpg

But after opening it again I can see it like this:

After_Save.jpg.df91820301e82731b8b5340bf0c2bea2.jpg

Wrong description is clear from the picture - Use Unicable Slot (1..8), wrong slot number after opening unicable dialog is clear from comparison of both pictures (4 vs 32).

 

2. I can still use only 1 LNB at the same time and it can be only A or B (though Simple A/B or Pos A/Opt A+Pos B/Opt A). I can see no conversion here for positions C & D (no signal for these LNB in any setup), it looks the same as in previous version here. What diseqc setting should I use for LNB C & D?

 

3. Yes, but each LNB could have different pin layout for it's slots so the pin is LNB specific (same pin doesn't mean the same slot number for each LNB). So once there will be the option to add another LNB for the same tuner (which is the purpose of unicable technology - see the example below) then you need specific slot/pin settings for each LNB.

 

Example: I want to set slot 2 (or pin 002) for LNB on position A, slot 5 (or pin 055) for LNB on position B, slot 13 (or pin 113) for LNB on position C and slot 17 (or pin 167) for LNB on position D for the same tuner.

 

 

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Griga
3 hours ago, oldgringo said:

Wrong description is clear from the picture - Use Unicable Slot (1..8), wrong slot number after opening unicable dialog is clear from comparison of both pictures (4 vs 32). 

 

Confirmed. It works in TransEdit, but not in DVBViewer, because the UI is translated. The translation sets the caption back to 1..8. The "32" output is another bug, but again only in the UI. Internally the values are stored correctly.

 

3 hours ago, oldgringo said:

What diseqc setting should I use for LNB C & D?

 

In the Unicable specifications there are no LNBs A, B.... or 1, 2... DVBViewer doesn't use this naming scheme either. That's just a UI thing and may be different depending on the software that you are using. The Unicable 2 (JESS) ODU_Channel_change command contains 4 bits with the same mapping as for committed DiSEqC 1.0 switches:

 

Bit 0: Band, 0 = low, 1 = high

Bit 1: Polarity, 0 = vertical, 1 = horizontal

Bit 2: Position, 0 = A, 1 = B

Bit 3: Option, 0 = A, 1 = B

 

There are 4 additional bits that are related to uncommitted DiSEqC 1.1 switches, allowing to connect up to 4 (DiSEqC 1.0) x 16 (DiSEqC 1.1) = 64 LNBs for 64 satellite positions to a Unicable router. Read more about these switches here. The usual UI mapping of the Pos/Opt bits to LNB numbers or letters is

 

Pos A / Opt A -> LNB A / 1

Pos B / Opt A -> LNB B / 2

Pos A / Opt B -> LNB C / 3

Pos B / Opt B -> LNB D / 4

 

But as already said, that is not part of the Unicable specifications and may vary.

 

I've checked the Unicable commands resulting from different Pos/Opt settings. It works as intended and has also been confirmed by a german tester as working who receives 4 satellite positions.

 

3 hours ago, oldgringo said:

Example: I want to set slot 2 (or pin 002) for LNB on position A, slot 5 (or pin 055) for LNB on position B,

 

I think there is a basic misunderstanding. Unicable doesn't work this way. The usual Unicable hardware setup consists of one or more LNBs connected to a Unicable router (SCR) that "on demand" maps a certain LNB and frequency received by this LNB to a user band (slot). Each tuner "owns" an individual slot for which it is configured. This slot can be PIN protected, in order to prevent two or more tuners from using the same user band (particularly in MDUs = multi-dwelling units).

 

With other words, there is a unique fixed tuner <-> user band <-> PIN assignment, but no fixed tuner <-> LNB or PIN <-> LNB assignment. The Unicable router decides which LNB gets connected to which tuner according to the received ODU_Channel_change command. The receiver/tuner may connect itself to any LNB that is connected to the Unicable router by sending the appropriate command. The tuner <-> LNB assignment is a variable thing.

 

Please note that Unicable LNBs are LNBs with a built-in Unicable router. Obviously it can't switch between different LNBs because it is only connected to a single LNB. So using Unicable LNBs for receiving more than one satellite position is the wrong hardware for this purpose. It requires normal (non-Unicable) LNBs plus a separate Unicable router like this one designed for 4 Quattro LNBs (satellite positions) and 16 tuners on each of its 4 output connectors.

 

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oldgringo

I know that unicable specification describes only few information about LNB's position. Even unicable programer uses quite not clear description A, B lower for A, B and A, B upper for C, D which says completely nothing about diseqc commands (it's the only a description of one of the parameters in saved LNB's config).

 

But what should be clear also from your description of PIN mechanism (you have described it quite well) that once I want assign to the tuner more than one unicable LNB than I should have an option available to set which slot (an it's PIN) I want to use. Look at the picture of the unicable II device (general setup) which can set separate PIN for each user band.

14234543_Unicablesetup.thumb.jpg.f720a0fe53e335759d655a7ee0d0a338.jpg

 

And one more picture with PIN protection mechanism description:

 

290244232_PINprotection.thumb.jpg.a07a7b163a51e434c3577ad023616930.jpg

 

Once I want to select a band on a tuner I use a signal with PIN which mark it used. Then for second SAT position for the same tuner I need to select different available slot on second LNB with it's specific PIN to protect it.

 

What you have described is probably the unicable router with wideband/quad LNB's which has only 32 specific bands for the same sat position so it doesn't need specific pins for another sat position/lnb. But in my case there are 4 unicable II LNBs which are connected directly through unicable combiners into one unicable system for 4 sat positions. This setup has been recommended to me directly by Inverto tech guys and work very well on my DM receivers. Each LNB has it's own Chained SAT position A, B, C and D (see the first picture) and each band of each LNB has its own PIN. So I can select 1 available band from each LNB to assign it to the tuner to have something similar to diseqc switch 1.0 for 32 tuners. I use it that way with my 3 dm900s, 2 TVs with unicable I ( positions A and B ) and want to share the same for my PC card.

 

BTW, in DM software the pin logic is obviously implemented same wrong way too. There is only one pin for the tuner. So once I set the PIN for the tuner (which works for only 1 from 4 user bands) and exactly the same configuration to another receiver I get on 2nd receiver tune error for locked user band but I can tune the rest 3 bands which means that they were not locked (of course it breaks the signal for the first receiver).

 

If I have a digital scope I would catch the signals for PIN/not PIN protected (but I guess it is clearly described here) and for selection of LNB C and D from DM receiver. Unfortunately this equipment is not available anywhere near.

 

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Griga
11 hours ago, oldgringo said:

in my case there are 4 unicable II LNBs which are connected directly through unicable combiners into one unicable system for 4 sat positions.

 

OK, I didn't know this kind of technology. It's quite new. It requires programmable Unicable LNBs. They must be set up for responding correctly to the Unicable LNB switching commands. That saves using a separate Unicable router. However, it doesn't change anything from the software's point of view.

 

11 hours ago, oldgringo said:

BTW, in DM software the pin logic is obviously implemented same wrong way too.

 

You will find no other implementation, because It's the only way it can be done. I think if you have programmable Unicable LNBs and a suitable programmer you have to configure the LNBs consistently so that each one provides the same user bands with the same associated PINs in the same order. It is not the task of the receiver software to implement a special per-LNB switching logic. The Unicable specifications don't provide means for something like that.

 

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oldgringo

I don't think the PIN usage is too complicated. You have to save specific LNB setup for each tuner (like you already do it). For unicable it is similar but there are more LNBs for the tuner with a bit wider structure (like brand, type, user band, pin, chained position, sat position, group A-H, diseqc, etc.). Once you get the information from channel list about requested sat position, frequency and other tune parameters you have to find first available tuner with assigned sat position (for each assigned LNB), get the LNB setup for this sat position and create diseqc/tune commands with all the information stored for this specific LNB together with tune information from the transponder. You certainly do this last part similar way but only from information from tuner setup. In your case one tuner = one sat position (one LNB) but for unicable technology it is a bit different because there may be more sat positions (aka LNBs) for each tuner.

 

Regarding tuning of LNBs on Chained C & D positions it is a bit more complicated because the information about switching the lower A, B positions to upper A, B positions is completely missing in documentation. I will probably directly ask Inverto guys for this specific information. You may ask the guys from IHAD forum for this specific part because they manage to do this in their Enigma2. I apologize but my German speech is not so good to make my questions clear for them. Thanks for your willingness.

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Griga
1 hour ago, oldgringo said:

Once you get the information from channel list about requested sat position, frequency and other tune parameters you have to find first available tuner with assigned sat position (for each assigned LNB), get the LNB setup for this sat position and create diseqc/tune commands with all the information stored for this specific LNB together with tune information from the transponder.

 

Sorry, doesn't make sense to me. I will not do it. The unidirectional part of the EN50607 specifications has been implemented, and that's all that can be expected for now (except fixes, if necessary). There are other important things to look after now.

 

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oldgringo

So what is the percentage of implementation of the unicable technology now? Once you don't support more LNBs (or tuners) for one cable than there is not true unicable support, not EN50607 not even EN50494. Unicable (JESS) means the solution for more LNBs (sat positions) - one cable - more tuners. I understand that it may collide with your current concept but that's simple a fact. I do not push you to do it. I only ask you to take it into consideration once you will re-create concepts for a new framework, api or whatever you call it. That's why we call this section Suggestions & Ideas. People use this technology more often these days but there is limitation in software not a hardware part. And it is not even such a new thing, the unicable as we now it today has been standardized in 2007 and first LNBs were available since 2008. So it may look like a new things but the time is going on and all current serious sat receivers support it. We may argue about technical aspects but this is the reality, no doubts.

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Griga
21 hours ago, oldgringo said:

Once you don't support more LNBs (or tuners) for one cable than there is not true unicable support, 

 

LNB selection is fully supported according to the EN50607 and EN50494 Unicable specifications and has been confirmed as working by a tester with 4 satellite positions / LNBs.

 

However, your idea how it shall be done will not be implemented because it doesn't make sense.

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oldgringo

4 sat positions with one tuner at the same time? How should I set this up? That's the question from the beginning!

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Griga
Quote

How should I set this up?

 

https://www.dvbviewer.tv/forum/topic/60082-unicable-ii-support/?do=findComment&amp;comment=475793

 

For using Unicable LNBs (not a separate Unicable router) in your setup the following conditions must be met:

  1. All Unicable LNBs must be programmable. "Normal" Unicable LNBs can't be used. Of course you need a suitable programmer for it.
  2. Each LNB must be programmed for a position A or B or C or D. No letter must be used twice. No LNB must be configured for A/B/C/D (all letters).
  3. The frequency <-> user band <-> PIN assignments must be identical in all LNBs. That means, if in LNB A user band 1 is configured for 1210 MHz and PIN 37, it must be the same in all other LNBs.

The command sent by DVBViewer to the Unicable LNBs contains the following information:

  • User band (for which the tuner is configured),
  • Frequency, polarity, low/high band (that shall be mapped to the user band frequency),
  • LNB (resulting from the channel list Pos/Opt configuration),
  • Optionally a PIN

Now let's assume there is a tuner in your PC that you have configured for user band 1, 1210 MHz, PIN 37. DVBViewer wants to receive a channel from LNB C = Pos A/Opt B. It creates the according command that is received and accepted by all LNBs (due to the combiner and the identical PIN). However, only LNB C will respond to it by mapping the requested frequency to the user band. All other LNBs (that are programmed for other letters than C) will switch user band 1 off in order to avoid conflicts.

 

A critical point in your setup may be the power supply. In receivers it is mostly much stronger than in DVB devices for a PC. They may not be able to supply 4 LNBs. In this case a power inserter may be needed, as shown here (see "SDU receiving 2 satellites"). Please ask Inverto for further advice.

 

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oldgringo

I tested exactly the same configuration (4 LNBs, 2 power inserters), with or without a (same) pin. The problem is that once I use Pos A/Opt B or Pos B/Opt B I have no signal from these LNBs. May this be the matter of wrong diseqc timing? I mean PC card specific? I use Technotrend Budget S2-4200 and I know that there was an issue with late power signal but once there are power inserters I guess it shouldn't be the issue anymore. But I may be wrong, of course.

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Griga
1 hour ago, oldgringo said:

The problem is that once I use Pos A/Opt B or Pos B/Opt B I have no signal from these LNBs.

 

...which means the Option bit is ignored. LNB C and D don't respond to the command sent by DVBViewer, right?

 

I would expect this behaviour if the tuner is configured for Unicable 1 that only supports two satellite positions. Or if the PIN assigned to the user band is different in LNBs C and D.

 

1 hour ago, oldgringo said:

May this be the matter of wrong diseqc timing?

 

I don't think so because in case of timing issues selecting LNB A or B wouldn't work either.

 

Please attach the file hardware.xml from the DVBViewer configuration folder for further analysis.

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Griga

The first tuner is not configured for Unicable (channel groups B..H), the second one for channel group A, Unicable 2, user band (slot) 25, user band frequency 1860 MHz, no PIN. Is this correct / intended?

 

Your TT-budget S2 4200 is a relabeled DVBSky device. DiSEqC issues are not known. I have a DVBSky single tuner and could verify that the Unicable DiSEqC command sequences are passed correctly to the DVBSky driver. Here the tuner receives 4 satellite positions by sending DiSEqC Pos/Opt commands to a conventional DiSEqC switch (no Unicable LNB or router involved).

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oldgringo

Yes, I have assigned 4 Pos X/ Opt X sat positions with unicable LNBs to group A and the rest of the sat positions to groups B-H. The first tuner is connected to positioner with universal LNB and second one to these 4 unicable LNBs. I can see the signal from one half of unicable devices (A, B). What is strange that once I change the other part (previously not functional) to A, B and previously working LNBs to C, D then other two devices are functional, but again not C and D. That's the reason why I suppose that my problem is diseqc related.

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Griga
14 hours ago, oldgringo said:

That's the reason why I suppose that my problem is diseqc related.

 

Seems the Option bit in the Unicable 2 DiSEqC command gets lost somewhere on its way, whereas the Position, High/Low and H/V bits in the same byte are preserved.

 

There is no evidence that this happens in DVBViewer. Nevertheless a crosscheck with TransEdit would be good. Please check your PMs.

 

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oldgringo
Posted (edited)

Tested but unfortunately the result is the same. I will try to check cables and power inserters during the weekend.

Edited by oldgringo

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