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pastimer

Channels and ChannelMappings

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pastimer

DVBV only uses channelmappings, not channels. If I have two sources for a given channel i end up with two entries in my channellist, which is undesirable.

 

A channellist should contain unique channels. Each channel can have one or more sources (devices) through which (given tuning parameters) a channel can be tuned. This is called a mapping. If there are multiple mappings for a channel, one mapping may be prefered above another. The default preference of a mapping can be based on an administrated device priority, but the user may change it. Also the user should be allowed to change the order in which channels are presented and also to eliminate channels from the list of channels that is available during using DVBViewer for viewing or recording transmissions (availables). The availables can be structured with subfolders the same way as a DVBV's favourite list.

 

Pretty basic huh? You want to make DVBV big? Start with a good datamodel!

Edited by pastimer

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Lars_MQ
Pretty basic huh?

Yeah, the same as the last ten times this suggestion was made. Unfortunately it's too basic :) It won't work. There are timeshared channels, there is no way to map the channels automatically and it's too complex per se so it has a high fault possibility. ;)

 

But most dvbviewers come with a highly sophisticated channelselection automation. it's called U.S.E.R. The top model even comes with an extra extension called B.R.A.I.N. :);)

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dgdg

What does "timeshared channels" mean ?

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pastimer
Yeah, the same as the last ten times this suggestion was made. Unfortunately it's too basic ;) It won't work. There are timeshared channels, there is no way to map the channels automatically and it's too complex per se so it has a high fault possibility. :)

 

But most dvbviewers come with a highly sophisticated channelselection automation. it's called U.S.E.R. The top model even comes with an extra extension called B.R.A.I.N. :);)

 

Yes, but there is an even bigger group of users that do not want to bother themselves with the technology and want the thing to operate as easy and intuitively as possible, like a tv almost. It's called W.I.F.E and C.H.I.L.D.

 

Are you a nurt? Nothing personal but it would explain the way you respond to this feature request ;)

Edited by pastimer

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dgdg
Are you a nurt? Nothing personal but it would explain you respond to this feature request ;)

 

I do not know what "nurt" means but this was a usual response from Lars. Do not take it personal. :)

 

Yes, but there is an even bigger group of users that do not want to bother themselves with the technology and want the thing to operate as easy and intuitively as possible, like a tv almost. It's called W.I.F.E and C.H.I.L.D.

 

DVBViewer is not designed to be easy-to-use. Even though many users her are claiming that it is. The channel list is not the only problem. The whole EPG is in my opinion very confusing. Their ist no consistant appliance concept. Allmost every screen page works different and you have to remember the keys for each page.

 

That's why I decided to use DVBViewer only as a recording software and not as HTPC software. But I am planing to give DVBViewer a second chance in a network streaming environment. :)

 

Maybe after some weeks of training I get familiar with the EPG. But I know that my wife will not accept this.

Edited by dgdg

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pastimer
there is no way to map the channels automatically and it's too complex per se so it has a high fault possibility. :)

 

Being familiar with administrative applications, i fail to see that it is complex, given a robust datamodel implementation and a healthy B.R.A.I.N. extension in the developers. ;)

 

Also, i fail to see why channels could not be mapped automatically. This would work much in the way it does now. Only difference that after the channel scan a channel list has to be created/updated on the basis of unique channel names in these mappings. The resulting Channel list then becomes the basis for the Availables list. The Available list is the basis for the Favourites list. The Availables list and Favourites list are on a per user basis.

 

So, my question to you is: Give me some REAL reasons why you dont want a channel list implementation that would open up the possibilities of dvbserver to the full. :)

 

Regards, Eppo

Edited by pastimer

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pastimer
DVBViewer is not designed to be easy-to-use.

 

See the home page: 'Simple to use' ' Simple to control'.

 

I must at least assume that these are goals, promises for the future. Naaah, too complicated to make things simple. ;)

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Moses

It's more simple to understand why there are two channels with the same name (if you showed your wife the different antennas, she will understand what you are talking about), than to understand why "channel" XYZ sometimes switches to channel XYZZ if some dvbdevice is busy and XYZZ comes from another device and seems to be the same channel for some channelmapping technique... there is no way to determine automatically what channels are the same channels.

 

"Time sharing" is when for example from 8 - 20 channel 1 and then from 20 - 8 channel 2 is transmitted at the same place. That is quite common in dvb-c networks. And it's quite impossible to do a decent channelmapping if one network does this time sharing and the other one does not. And as always DVBViewer won't implement some unfinished concept, which is why it is that stable. ;)

 

If you want to do that mapping manually you could try media portal. It's a hell of a job.. it's more easy to get another dvb-c/s/t device and DVBViewer. :)

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pastimer
It's more simple to understand why there are two channels with the same name (if you showed your wife the different antennas, she will understand what you are talking about), than to understand why "channel" XYZ sometimes switches to channel XYZZ if some dvbdevice is busy and XYZZ comes from another device and seems to be the same channel for some channelmapping technique... there is no way to determine automatically what channels are the same channels.

 

"Time sharing" is when for example from 8 - 20 channel 1 and then from 20 - 8 channel 2 is transmitted at the same place. That is quite common in dvb-c networks. And it's quite impossible to do a decent channelmapping if one network does this time sharing and the other one does not. And as always DVBViewer won't implement some unfinished concept, which is why it is that stable. ;)

 

If you want to do that mapping manually you could try media portal. It's a hell of a job.. it's more easy to get another dvb-c/s/t device and DVBViewer. :)

 

Your answer looks smart but to me it's absolute bullshit. You can compose a channellist on the basis of unique channelnames in the mappings you created during scanning automatically. If there are any imperfections in your mapping you can then further edit the relations between channels and mappings by hand for that handfull of cases where channels names differ but are in fact the same channel or where there is your timesharing problem. In that case you will deliberately create two channels so that you can see which is which.

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pastimer
And as always DVBViewer won't implement some unfinished concept, which is why it is that stable. ;)

 

If that were true, you must remove the possibility of more than one device. DVBV's approch of channels is not ready for it.

It's possible that two channnels are given the same name and we cannot see which is which! Unfinished concept!

Edited by pastimer

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Derrick

..nerd or nurd but not nurt (could be the dutch spelling :) )

 

some of us are anoraks ;)

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dgdg
some of us are anoraks ;)

 

That's what I wear to protect me against rain. :)

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dgdg
(if you showed your wife the different antennas, she will understand what you are talking about)

 

I had a girlfriend who liked to repair cars. The first time I met her she was lying under her car and was changing the exhaust pipe. She would have unterstood what you are talking about.

 

Normal women will not. For my woman watching TV has nothing to do with antennas. And she is right !

 

When I tried to explain the DVBViewer OSD she asked, why we do not buy a standard TV. HTPC with DVBViewer ist much more expensive (not DVBViewer but the HTPC) and much more complicated. And it needs more time to startup.

 

Now give me some arguments. Where are the benefits? ;)

 

I saved my HTPC by reinstalling Pinnacle Media Center.

Edited by dgdg

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Darwin
she asked, why we do not buy a standard TV

Very best solution!! :)

 

For example: ;)

- HD 1000 (those twentyfive musthaveservices embedded and properly numbered)

- 37" LCD

- DD-Amplifier

- 1 (Amplifier-) RC with basic functions of IRD and TV (learned from original remotes) incl. ALL_ON -and ALL_OFF - macros

 

 

And your toys are your toys again... ;)

 

... and much time to develop an lightweight, easy_to_use, absolute flexible, multidimensional optimized data-layout! :)

 

 

Sorry for OT ;)

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Moses

I don't know about your wifes, but most women I know are not that stupid... of course they won't know about diseqC if no one explains it to them and most probably won't care for any of the technical details... but if you explain: This is antenna A, connected to that device over here, and it allows reception of channels X, Y, Z, and that is antenna B, necessary to recieve channels X, Z, M, N (no, I did not run out of letters here :unsure:), then I am very sure every woman will understand that.

 

Of course it will be harder to explain why there are two antennas and why you need both of them if they recieve nearly the same channels anyway, but that is something else and there is not realy a logical answer to that, of course. :tongue:

 

I still think it's better to keep the channels seperated (because it's your toys the won't work ocasinally, be honest :tongue:)... and there is no real fault-proof way to detect what channels corresponds. And after all, all that should be possible to be done in a plugin... so, do it, your toy just got a new level of exitement :(

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pastimer
I still think it's better to keep the channels seperated.

 

You mean mappings, not channels. DVBV only uses mappings.

It's not necessarily a choice. Could be an option. Give me a choise between using a channellist or a mapping list. Using a channel list would involve a little extra function to find a free mapping behind it.

Edited by pastimer

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pastimer
And after all, all that should be possible to be done in a plugin... so, do it, your toy just got a new level of exitement :tongue:

 

The plugin would replace the whole channnel administration of DVBViewer? Yeah why not. :unsure:

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dgdg
I don't know about your wifes, but most women I know are not that stupid...

 

Women are not stupid. They think different. :rolleyes:

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pastimer
"Time sharing" is when for example from 8 - 20 channel 1 and then from 20 - 8 channel 2 is transmitted at the same place. That is quite common in dvb-c networks. And it's quite impossible to do a decent channelmapping if one network does this time sharing and the other one does not. And as always DVBViewer won't implement some unfinished concept, which is why it is that stable. o:)

 

Timeshare is the daily availability of a channel. A sophisticated channellist 'knows':

BBC4, 20.00-06.00 and CBeebies,06.00-20.00 are two logical channels with the same mappings.

BBC1, 00.00-24.00 would always show up as BBC1

 

So: If i look at my channellist at 21.30 hours, it should show BBC4 and not Cbeebies.

 

Administrating a sophisticated channellist is a one-time exercise. After that ist's very little work to maintain.

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Griga
Administrating a sophisticated channellist is a one-time exercise. After that ist's very little work to maintain.

Expresses lack of (international) experience.

 

E.g. there is a German terrestrial time-shared documentary / children's channel that appears round the clock as "Doku/Kika" in the broadcasted service information tables. There is no way for an application to determine which of these programmmes is running at a certain time.

 

Things like that are handled differently in different countries, even in different DVB networks within one country, and it should be clear that we can't provide "localised" DVBViewer versions for each particular case.

 

User opinions about DVBViewer mostly originate from a very limited experience with receiving a particular DVB network in a particular country on a particular PC in a particular (family) situation. DVBViewer developers can't afford such narrow thinking. You will have to accept that you are sharing DVBViewer with people all over the world. It will never be taylored for your personal or local needs.

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Moses
You will have to accept that you are sharing DVBViewer with people all over the world. It will never be taylored for your personal or local needs.

 

At least as long as you don't change the behaviour with your own plugins / com application. If you do that for a HTPC and write an application that reacts to the IR and controls DVBViewer, then your whole channellist whishes should be possible, easily... just an example. o:)

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thehawk

Speaking of which Moses, let's say I write an application which can react to my remote control when I - let's say - press 5 and I want to launch that particular channel in DVBViewer, what command shall I send to DVBViewer?

 

Because ironically I was thinking about coding something very simply for this tasks.

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Moses

just have a look at the COM interface and/or command line interface (which ever you prefer). The COM interface can be used for bidirectional communication, but you can also just send every action from the actions.ini to DVBViewer via IDVBViewer.SendCommand(int). For changing channels there is another method to switch to a channel directly, but you would have to assemble the channel number in your application.

 

With the commandline you can send every action with parameter -X####.

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Darwin
have a look at the COM interface

Done, but too stupid or not looking long enough!?! :rolleyes:

 

My own example-data (DVB-only, ID S:0648:0001:0451:0FAB):

 

  <DS dsID="S" lud="2008-01-01T01:10:44" lus="td.dbs3k" >
<BC bcID="6480" name="ASTRA 1" pos="19,2" dir="E">
  <ON onID="0001">
	<TS tsID="0451" chkID="78A4" nID="0035" freq="12515000" pol="h" sr="22000" fec="5/6" inv="2" s2="false">
	  <S sID="0FAB" type="01" pmt="" pcr="1FFF" prID="E055" name="NED1" />
	</TS>
  </ON>
</BC>
 </DS>
 <DS dsID="P">
<PR prID="E055" name="CANALDIGITAAL" mapID="" />
 </DS>

 

and

DVBViewer-device="TT BDA/DVB-S Tuner"" at LineA="MultiSwitch" with Option="A/A" to ID "S:6480" (Astra 1)

 

Give me some short hints to tune/show this service with a running DVBViewer instance!

class?

method?

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Moses

my approach would have been to let DVBViewer have all the channels in it's channellist and then let my external application do a mapping or whatever on the channel numbers or other crietia. I didn't find a way to tune to special parameters, just channels.

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Darwin
to let DVBViewer have all the channels in it's channellist

 

But ... that's exactly the problem... :rolleyes:

Edited by Darwin

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Moses

no, it's not. The channellist of DVBViewer can real big. At least I didn't manage to overfill it, yet. Does it crash with many thousand entries? As far as I know, it doesn't, so I don't see a problem here!

 

The channelmapping can be done by an external application. If you have channel XYZ in let's say, 3 networks, you'll have it in your list 3 time. Just write an application, tell it that channel XYZ is to be tuned when numbers 123 are pressed in a time of 2 seconds or less and then tell it where the channels are in DVBViewer list (for example number 52, number 1692 and number 2006). So if number 123 is pressed, then your application tells the DVBViewer which of the channel XYZ entries in it's list should be used, for example you tune DVBViewer to channel 52. So you have to do your mapping out of DVBViewer. Where is the problem with that?

 

The one thing that is not 100% clear to me right now, is, if there is an easy way to know if it's possible to tune to a channel or not. Of course DVBViewer will show "wrong" channel numbers... just hack them out of the osd skin and replace them by your own entry (that should be possible)... :)

 

Another thing is, that you'll still have to coordinate your recordings manually. But I'd recommend that anyway for reasons I already told somewhere.... hm... maybe your application can be smart here, too. Just check the timer list from time to time and if there is a conflict, have a look, if there is another possibility. That definitively is possible via the COM interface.

 

I somewhere posted a little application that allows channel change via COM interface if PIP is activated (if I remember correctly, that wasn't checked, it just always mapped the number buttons to the channelchange actions). Maybe that could be a start here. It was written in J#. Here is the link: http://www.DVBViewer.info/forum/index.php?...st&p=163349

The download is still working, you are free to use it...

Edited by Moses

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Darwin

..ooOOPs, version 1.3 of COM-Interface-Documentation (downloaded from member area) isn't state of the art ?

 

With VS-objectbrowser now I also found IDVBViewer.Set_CurrentChannelNr(int nr) - and others!

 

The goal is an external (upgraded and extended) standolaone service-management and viewing/hearing (only) the therein selected service. (similar to preview option in TransEdit)

 

Therefore I need something like IDVBViewer.Set_CurrentChannel(IChannelItem channel)... :)

 

(building the Channelitem is documented and so far not the problem)

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pastimer
Expresses lack of (international) experience.

 

E.g. there is a German terrestrial time-shared documentary / children's channel that appears round the clock as "Doku/Kika" in the broadcasted service information tables. There is no way for an application to determine which of these programmmes is running at a certain time.

 

Things like that are handled differently in different countries, even in different DVB networks within one country, and it should be clear that we can't provide "localised" DVBViewer versions for each particular case.

 

User opinions about DVBViewer mostly originate from a very limited experience with receiving a particular DVB network in a particular country on a particular PC in a particular (family) situation. DVBViewer developers can't afford such narrow thinking. You will have to accept that you are sharing DVBViewer with people all over the world. It will never be taylored for your personal or local needs.

 

Of course there is a way: you could facilitate to program timeslots in your channel list. Now who is narrow-minded here?

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