TBS QBox II & DiSEqC 1.2

[QBox User]

Hi,

 

Previous thread

http://www.DVBViewer.tv/forum/topic/34102-qboxii-s2-hd-usb-cant-control-diseqc/

dealt with DiSEqC 1.1 switching. I would like to know, before purchase, whether the software can also drive a dish motor with this device.

 

The TransEdit demo download (V3.3) provided for device testing does not work with the motor. It precedes the versions which incorporated DiSEqC support. The test version 3.4.1.3 posted in the thread also does not work with 1.2.

 

The QBox comes with a licensed OEM version (1.0.2.136) of DVBViewer, called "TBS Viewer". This also does not work with the motor.

 

Is it likely that the current DVBViewer versions would also fail?

 

I have successfully used a few other products on trial - these had no problems moving the dish.

 

TBS has posted a SDK on its web-site with details of interfaces

http://www.tbsdtv.com/english/Download.html

[Griga]

Let's try to find out... first with an up-to-date TransEdit test version (attached). If it does not work please attach the file TransEdit.ini created by this version.

TransEdit_3_6_3_3_Test.zip

[QBox User]

OK, that's better. I had some trouble, having to use the positioner console, and not getting every command to work reliably, but some basic function is there. I was having to click twice to get any response, so I increased the DiSEqCcount parameter to 2 - for a while, that made the dish move on the first command, but then when I went back to it later, it seemed to revert to previous behaviour and I had to click the console button twice again to get movement.

 

Goto position commands were working from the positioner, also Goto angular position. Go East, West did not work at all. While the scanner was working with the automatic repeat, the "Scan Selected" command only succeeded on the 3rd attempt.

 

In short, the positioning did work, but not reliably. Could this be a timing problem?

 

I have had the DiSEqC repeat function set to 2 on some other apps that were working, but only as a precaution - they still move the dish when I change the setting back to 1. One app did not have any setting to repeat the command, but was still OK.

 

Is there any more that can be done?

TransEdit.ini

[Griga]

Could this be a timing problem?

Maybe yes. Try the DiSEqC Editor (set DiSEqC to Extended). It enables user-defined sequences of DiSEqC commands and delays.

[Derrick]

..you could also check with altdvb.

[QBox User]

AltDvb has been working fine, thanks, if a little unstable on my Windows 7 system. It moves the dish reliably and functions very well except for the picture quality, despite using codecs that work in other apps (including TBS Viewer). AltDVB probably does not support EVR and my system really needs DXVA hardware acceleration to work with HD, but even SD is "grainy" (with a vertical stripe). I keep searching for perfection, so I'd like to try DVBViewer.

 

Here's what I did to test using the DiSEqc Editor:

Send Goto n twice, with no delay - failure to move motor

Send Goto n twice with wait interval between of 100ms - fail

Increase wait interval to 500ms - success

250ms - fail

300ms - success

 

All these tests were done with TransEdit.ini setting DiSEqCcount.0 = 2. When I changed it back to 1, the tests failed. Does this mean the app was actually sending the command four times? I may try again with a further wait before the first Goto, and with the .ini parameter at 1.

 

Just to note that, while the command will move the dish, the scanner usually fails to tune not only on the first Scan command (while the motor is moving), but also on the second, even if sent after the motor has stopped. It always takes a third "Scan Selected" or single transponder before lock is obtained. I don't know if this is some quirk of the program, caused by some sequence of events. "Scan All" will usually pick up the second transponder in the list after failing to tune the first (while moving).

[Derrick]

I proposed altdvb mainly for the diseqc test. It's a lean application without many of the features a modern application like DVBViewer has to offer, though imho on certain fields it's still state of the art

[Griga]

Does this mean the app was actually sending the command four times?

Yes. Rather set DiSEqCCount to 1 and add repeated commands (maybe with a delay in between) in the DiSEqC Editor in order to get full control over what is happening.

 

Just to note that, while the command will move the dish, the scanner usually fails to tune not only on the first Scan command (while the motor is moving) but also on the second, even if sent after the motor has stopped.

Even with automatic retune attempts? Dunno why this is happening. TransEdit gets no feedback from the motor and doesn't know how long it takes to reach the position, but after the motor has stopped it should work. You can try to increase the PAT timeout in the settings in order to let TransEdit wait longer for data to arrive. The tuner lock timeout doesn't take effect on your device.

[QBox User]

OK, I was little ahead of you..

 

This is what I ended up with, after setting DiSEqCcount.0 = 1.

 

3590=W300 [E0 31 6B 05] W300 [E0 31 6B 05]

0192=W300 [E0 31 6B 01] W300 [E0 31 6B 01] W5000

etc

Seems to work fine.

 

Setting retune attempts from 0 to 1 got the "three times" scan down to two.

Adding a suitable long delay for dish movement gets it down to one when the dish needs to move, and lets "Scan All" catch the first transponder.

 

Console Goto n commands worked with a single click - don't know what I could have changed there, but I only tried a couple of satellites. Go West etc still doesn't work, but I don't need that.

 

How does this fit into the main program? If I understand the DiSEqC page correctly, TransEdit scan results are imported into DVBViewer Pro directly, including DiSEqC command sequences (after 4.0.0.0), so the main program won't need any mods. So, do I just need the modified TransEdit with current DVBViewer?

 

@Derrick - I hear you on AltDVB, but it wasn't built for Windows 7, whereas the licensed TBS Viewer gives excellent viewing quality, so I'm hoping your spplication will give me the best of both (and maybe more?)

Edited February 9, 2011 by QBox User

[QBox User]

In fact, the repeated command is not necessary, as long as the 300ms delay comes first.

[Griga]

Console Goto n commands worked with a single click - don't know what I could have changed there

From the TransEdit manual:

 

first enter the sequence for a satellite position in the DiSEqC Editor. Insert at least one positioner command („Preset Position“ or „Angular Position“) and click „Apply“ in the TransEdit Main Window. Make sure that the satellite position is selected. After that, the Positioner Console will output this sequence when you click one of the Command Buttons, but replace all contained positioner commands (including repeated commands) by the command assigned to the Button.

 

How does this fit into the main program?

You'll need the full TransEdit version (available in the members area after purchasing DVBViewer Pro) for scanning and exporting scan results, including the Extended DiSEqC setting. DVBViewer reads the DiSEqC command sequences from the shared file DiSEqC.xml (resp. DiSEqC.ini in case of DVBViewer GE) if TransEdit is part of a DVBViewer installation. Besides that DVBViewer Pro also provides a DiSEqC Editor, but no possibility to configure the PAT timeout (which doesn't affect playback, because it always waits endlessly for data).

 

In fact, the repeated command is not necessary, as long as the 300ms delay comes first.

Seems the only thing that is necessary to make it work is a 300 ms delay between initializing the device and the first DiSEqC command, right? TransEdit initializes the device on each scan (not for each transponder, of course) and releases it afterwards. Dunno if the QBOX II automatically switches LNB power off when it is not used. It could explain the issue because in this case the delay would be the time that your motor needs to power up and get ready for receiving DiSEqC commands.

 

TransEdit already inserts a 100 ms delay after initializing a QBOX device (prophylactically, so to say), yielding a total of 400 ms with your 300 ms. Maybe TransEdit should rather use a delay of 400 ms in order to avoid future trouble - what do you think?

[Derrick]

I don't have a QBox but another TBS (8921) card. LNB voltage is always switched off after the card is released by the application. Additional delays have to be longer than the internal delays (firmware, driver) to add to the total delay. 100ms is normally too short..

[Derrick]

Transedit has to initialize the card. Without additional delay it takes appr. 200ms from applying 18V until the start of the diseqc command sent from the positioner console. Altdvb is already initialized when using the console because it's part of the application -> lnb voltage is already applied!

 

edit extended -> delay and positioner -> analyze

 

+100ms -> 268ms total delay before diseqc command

+200ms -> 367ms

+300ms -> 468ms

 

There is a possible bug with extended. The last nibble of the commited switch command is not ok. I checked it for A/A. The last nibble always stays at 0000 which is only correct fo low vertical -> scanning of the other planes fails.

 

/edit

my fault, I should have taken committed(updated)

[QBox User]

You'll need the full TransEdit version (available in the members area after purchasing DVBViewer Pro) for scanning and exporting scan results, including the Extended DiSEqC setting.

 

Good. I went back to the 3.4.1.3 test version and that now works with the delays inserted. 3.3.0.0 on the site download page has no 1.2 settings and the positioner is disabled.

 

Seems the only thing that is necessary to make it work is a 300 ms delay between initializing the device and the first DiSEqC command, right? TransEdit initializes the device on each scan (not for each transponder, of course) and releases it afterwards. Dunno if the QBOX II automatically switches LNB power off when it is not used. It could explain the issue because in this case the delay would be the time that your motor needs to power up and get ready for receiving DiSEqC commands.

 

The QBox has its own separate power supply, and powers up even when the PC is shutdown.

 

In TransEdit, the QBox switches off power after the Scan is completed (there's no power to the motor, which doesn't respond to button presses). In some other apps, I think the QBox is initialised and the motor energised at start-up, before tuning is attempted, so these would have been OK. It's possible there were instances where initial tune attempts failed but I didn't investigate further.

 

TransEdit already inserts a 100 ms delay after initializing a QBOX device (prophylactically, so to say), yielding a total of 400 ms with your 300 ms. Maybe TransEdit should rather use a delay of 400 ms in order to avoid future trouble - what do you think?

 

If it's necessary to make a motor work, then setting to 400ms would avoid problems for anyone else who tries it, and shouldn't cause a problem if only applied on initialising for scanning and not on switching satellites (motor position or ports) in DVBViewer. An alternative might be another check-box/ini setting in TransEdit to select the delay manually, for all satellites.

 

Given Derrick's comment, would 400ms be enough? The end of the present 100ms may not be concurrent with the start of the 300ms command delay (i.e. it could be more than 400ms in my test set-up). {Edit: His second post answers this. +250ms would be more than 400ms total, and this didn't work} If you want me to try it, please post another test version. [A TransEdit.ini setting could be easily adjusted.]

 

Would the manual delay still be needed for the version currently posted? I won't have time to install until next week, so I can delay purchase and downloading until then, if it would make a difference.

Edited February 10, 2011 by QBox User

[Griga]

In TransEdit, the QBox switches off power after the Scan is completed (there's no power to the motor, which doesn't respond to button presses).

Didn't know that. There is a TBS interface for switching the LNB power on/off, so I assumed that it is supposed to be controlled by the application. TransEdit uses this Interface for switching the LNB power on before waiting 100 ms, but not for switching it off. In DVBViewer it's optional, and obviously useless, if the driver switches it off anyway. No good behaviour in combination with a motor and releasing the device as soon as possible. However, TransEdit keeps hold of the device after it has been used in the positioner console (a command has been sent), as long as the console is open.

 

BTW: TransEdit and DVBViewer are handling QBOX and TBS devices differently, because when I wrote the code there were different SDKs. However, the current SDK suggests that TBS has unified it. So there is something you can try:

 

- Close TransEdit

 

- Open the file TransEdit.ini with a text editor

 

- Replace the Vendor.0=18 entry by Vendor.0=13, thus letting TransEdit handle the QBOX as TBS device

 

- Save and relaunch TransEdit.

 

Does it make any difference?

 

so I can delay purchase and downloading until then, if it would make a difference.

After purchasing you will get all updates for free anyway, so it doesn't matter.

 

If you want to try another test version with an initial 400 ms delay, here it is:

TransEdit_3_6_3_4_Test.zip

[QBox User]

TransEdit keeps hold of the device after it has been used in the positioner console (a command has been sent), as long as the console is open.

 

I see that power to the motor is maintained while the console is open, and is turned off when the console is closed.

 

 

BTW: TransEdit and DVBViewer are handling QBOX and TBS devices differently, because when I wrote the code there were different SDKs. However, the current SDK suggests that TBS has unified it.

 

I see no difference with Vendor.0 = 13. I have selected TBS Prof7500 device (similar USB type) in another app where there was no QBox option - it worked very well.

 

After purchasing you will get all updates for free anyway, so it doesn't matter.

 

If you want to try another test version with an initial 400 ms delay, here it is:

I was just asking to know whether I'd need to set up every satellite with Extended commands. Looks like that would be safest, because the latest version wasn't a success. With just the position command (no extended), it worked sometimes, others not. Multi-transponder scans seemed more reliable, though they were still missing the first transponders - in some cases, the dish stayed put and scanned the satellite at the existing position instead.

 

On a closer look, I noticed a delay of about 15 seconds before the dish started to move. Does the Goto command get sent before each re-tune? If so, I might guess the first command is not received, but the second is, then the third re-tune actually succeeds with the dish in position.

 

Going back to Extended with 300ms made the dish move immediately on the first command. 100ms was not enough, so maybe the delay you added is not effective because it isn't applied after power is turned on.

[QBox User]

I have now installed the full version. As advised, Transedit 3.6.3.0 will only move the dish if the positioner console is open and has sent a command - this is OK for scanning. DVBViewer does not move the dish, even with DiSEqCcount = 2 or Vendor = 13. Increasing the Extended command Wait period or repeating the commands does not seem to work either.

 

debug.log

14.02.11 18:12:41.824 Checkdevices     Sending retune to TBS QBOX DVB-S2 Tuner
14.02.11 18:12:41.835 DeviceSendDiSEqCCommand bvQBox
14.02.11 18:12:48.222 Checkdevices     Sending retune to TBS QBOX DVB-S2 Tuner
14.02.11 18:12:48.233 DeviceSendDiSEqCCommand bvQBox
14.02.11 18:13:03.837 Checkdevices     Sending retune to TBS QBOX DVB-S2 Tuner
14.02.11 18:13:03.848 DeviceSendDiSEqCCommand bvQBox
14.02.11 18:13:10.267 Checkdevices     Sending retune to TBS QBOX DVB-S2 Tuner
14.02.11 18:13:10.278 DeviceSendDiSEqCCommand bvQBox

14.02.11 20:05:52.563 Checkdevices     Sending retune to TBS QBOX DVB-S2 Tuner
14.02.11 20:05:52.574 DeviceSendDiSEqCCommand bvQBox
14.02.11 20:05:52.584 DeviceSendDiSEqCCommand bvQBox
14.02.11 20:06:08.520 Checkdevices     Sending retune to TBS QBOX DVB-S2 Tuner
14.02.11 20:06:08.530 DeviceSendDiSEqCCommand bvQBox
14.02.11 20:06:08.540 DeviceSendDiSEqCCommand bvQBox

14.02.11 21:58:22.800 Checkdevices     Sending retune to TBS QBOX DVB-S2 Tuner
14.02.11 21:58:22.812 DeviceSendDiSEqCCommand bvTurbosight
14.02.11 21:58:29.247 Checkdevices     Sending retune to TBS QBOX DVB-S2 Tuner
14.02.11 21:58:29.258 DeviceSendDiSEqCCommand bvTurbosight

 

DiSEqC.xml

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<settings>
 <section name="Commands2">
   <entry name="0282">W500 [E0 31 6B 03]</entry>
   <entry name="0192">W500 [E0 31 6B 01] W500 [E0 31 6B 01]</entry>
   <entry name="0235">W500 [E0 31 6B 04]</entry>
   <entry name="0130">W500 [E0 31 6B 02]</entry>
   <entry name="3592">W500 [E0 31 6B 05]</entry>
 </section>
</settings>

 

Is it possible to modify DVBViewer in the same way as you did TransEdit?

[QBox User]

Further to my previous post (which I can no longer edit):

 

I checked the Channel Editor and realised the default channel lists were set up for channel switching, not positioning. Changing the DiSEqC mode for each of the four default satellites to "position" (not Extended) lets channel selection move the dish where necessary. I'm not sure what part, if any, the DiSEqC.xml file plays in this.

 

No doubt I will learn more as I set up the other satellites.